Thank you
My son is a multi-year USAMO qualifier. That matters (a lot) to some schools. So I always knew that he had a better chance than others with the same grades and scores stats. He didn’t apply to all those schools; and he picked the ones to which he did apply for different reasons (for instance he did not apply to either Harvard or Yale). He also had schools outside that list that he liked and chose for different reasons. Within the top 20 and Ivy schools he applied to, he went 5-1-1. Does that help you understand his situation and results?
@texaspg Actually, I just looked at the US News rankings, and the school is ranked outside the top 20 (though not by much). Didn’t know that.
My D’s school normally sends 1-2 kids to one of top 10. They don’t have multiple cross acceptances between those schools. This year we have one in H, one in Cornell and my D in M, C, C. I can’t explain why.
Threads like this make my head spin.
I agree with T26E4 that you can’t get kids to tell you why. They don’t know which piece or pieces it was. You would need to see the apps of those kids who do have broad wins. You’d have to have read many apps (or interviewed many kids) to see the differentiation. And you have to get out of the high school mindset.
I got a kick out of reading this discussion. After going through the college application process with two children (both for engineering) & many friends, there does not seem to be a definitive answer or pattern to college admissions at the perceived top 20 holistic (annoying buzzword) colleges. Ironically, often the admissions counselors at these top schools are not as smart as the kids they are reviewing. And, they are just humans with biases (and hungry stomachs around lunchtime, as one poster noted), as we all are.
I wonder how many white students accepted to multiple top ten schools had the resources of amazing, expensive private school or outside college counselors who helped them write and rewrite their essays and fine tune their resumes. Most of my friends used these services. (My son wrote his essays and apps on the due dates, despite my prodding to work ahead!). And, how much $ did they spend on test prep and how many times did they take the tests? How many parents paid lots of $$ for the charitable foundations & international community service projects that these kids supposedly initiated themselves? Again, many people I know funded many thousands for their students’ resumes.
My son spent our $ on only two Ivy applications, in part because I know that the odds are stacked against white middle class boys who are not recruited athletes or world class musicians, etc. All colleges want the weathy or the minority/first generation. His statistics suggest that he is in the top 25% of Ivy accepted students, but I know that there are more parameters than just academics & test scores.
Of the two Ivies, he got into one and rejected by another. We had prepared him well for rejections & intentionally did not set him up for disappointment at Harvard or Princeton (or Stanford) despite how wonderful we thought they were. The other Ivies were just not appealing to him for various reasons.
To me, his acceptances at places like USC & UVA or his waitlist schools (Duke & Vanderbilt) are more appealing than any of the Ivies because the weather is way better & the students seem happier.
That said, we are leaving the decision to him. As an engineer, he also has great options like GA Tech, RPI & Lehigh, which have strong tech reputations. He got rejected at MIT (not a sirprise) & we both did not like Cal Tech, Michigan & some of the other engineering powerhouses, so he didn’t apply.
I think overanalyzing these Ivy decisions is possibly a waste of time. Analyzing where a child’s best chances for happiness & success in his/her fields of interest (academically & otherwise) seems a more valuable exercise. US News rankings, College Confidential, the Common App, and the Ivy League label have all combined to create a college application monstrosity/frenzy. I attended two top 20 schools myself in the Dark Ages (one Ivy & one further south) but I feel sorry for the kids & parents going through this process now, including my own family!
I’ve noticed that the standout URM applicants are very successful with Ivy acceptances. URM with a >34 ACT or 2250 SATscore has a really solid chance of getting into any college.
@SeekingPam - I think these kids are not the same as the bright, well-rounded kids that get into one or two top schools randomly. They have:
- High stats
- Some 'spike' - science/music/art/whatever (international level)
- Several other things they are good at (state level)
- No gaping hole in their app
- Very good essays
- One more thing that stands out - whether it be a hook (URM/mid-westerner/etc.) or a really interesting backstory or amazing essays.
Those things make them appealing regardless of who else they’ve already admitted.
BTW: My school usually sends a couple to Brown, Cornell, Northwestern, JHU, etc. each year, but only one every couple of years to HYPSM©. I was accepted to YSMC.
Our kids took the SAT in elementary school as part of a talent search. They were able to learn everything they needed at the time from just the Blue Book. Since then I have believed that spending money on ACT/SAT test prep is just a waste of money for self-motivated students. My D, now a junior, did just fine with about $100 in test guides (for both the ACT and SAT).
As for the charitable foundations and international community service projects, I think that admissions counselors see through that very clearly.
Congratulations to your son. Sounds like he has a number of great options.
Not as smart as the kids? You need to know what apps really look like, not overestimate a 17 year old high school kid, not assume he even knows the college and what they want. He’s never lived on his own, thinks he’s cream because his own hs tells him so, he joined a lot of clubs the hs put in front of him, put in x hours of service. It’s a buyer’s market. Don’t assume that if, in his own app, adcoms don’t see the full picture they want, that it’s their fault, they’e random, they’re just favoring others. Anyone can research their target colleges, try to understand the values, what the college encourages. Instead, too many rely on CC, US News, and the ramblings of friends. My old expression is, “You want to be Harvard, then think like Harvard.”
Anonymoose, not so much “spike,” which implies this same hierarchical thinking CC can’t shake. Instead, think about “spark.” Some kids can think, are already presenting a college level mindset. Too may are still wrapped up in hs life, assume the measure is how their hs views them. That’s just one component, the look back. The top colleges are looking ahead.
“No gaping hole” is one big key.
I am just slightly offended (not a big deal) that lookingforward assumed my son is arrogant at 17. He is actually one of the most shy & humble kids I know. Those traits can be attractive, but they have also held him back at times. He is one of those kids who works hard behind the scenes.
Am not sure anyone on this thread is blaming other students or admissions counselors for anything. I just think there is no single answer/formula for getting into Harvard (or wherever). Clearly, my son didn’t even try (!), but he has two friends who did get into Harvard ED this year. And they are very different from each other. One white. One black. Different talents.
Lastly, I still stand by my knowledge that not all college admissions counselors had the high school & college academic achievements that many of the kids they are reviewing do/will. That’s not to say that they don’t have the experience to do their jobs well. Although, sometimes I question why a regional counselor, who was a Psych or English major in college with no technical experience, makes the decisions on the engineering applications at some colleges.
Interesting comments by all.
No, I was using a generic “he” and perhaps should have used “she.” And I was responding to this: “Ironically, often the admissions counselors at these top schools are not as smart as the kids they are reviewing.”
A top college adcom does not have to have experienced AP whatever or have been varsity captain or win a debate medal- or majored specifically in X- to know what his or her college wants, in depth and breadth, what sorts of strengths help the individual thrive and build the right community of happy strivers, successful in their majors, as well as socially, what history has shown, at that college. He or she does need to know that college very well and what kids today are capable of. They don’t operate in a vacuum. In fact, I’ve said many times that adcoms, with their travel, their broader reference points (programs, stats, competition, opportunities for kids, etc, down to community demographics,) the number of apps they go through annually, have a deeper picture of kids than many.
There’s a continued idea on CC that your fate is in one persnickety adcom’s hands. And that that’s some 22-24 year old kid. No. The higher the tier the more the team operates. There are eyes on the apps who have tech experience and there is consultation with faculty.
Simple fact, from my perspective, is sites like CC can confuse the picture. People here talk about awards, quirkiness, who has the most AP or club titles.
ps. humble is an asset. 
I personally think that awards and participation in prestigious summer programs make a difference. I got in 5 out of 6 ivies I applied to and a lot of the other kids in my summer program did so as well. You don’t need to be a national winner. lots of 1st place statewide finishes and lower level national awards will do the job. For humanities kids, it’s a different ballgame because there’s fewer objective ways to measure achievement (but even then there’s national writing competitions and volunteer awards) @SeekingPam Stats aren’t important (except when they’re low enough to drastically decrease your chances 2100/32ish)
@debate4ever what program?
Search top science research programs for high school seniors on Google and MIT gives a list. It’s one of them @ZBlue17
I agree with @debate4ever that some summer programs can make a difference. My kid participated in a highly-regarded research program last summer and is now an MC cross admit. Many friends from this program were also admitted to these and other highly-selective universities. Of course, you don’t HAVE to participate in one of these programs to receive an acceptance, and some kids that participate nevertheless aren’t admitted, but your chances may improve, depending on the quality of the program.
The consensus is that respect for the program is inversely related to cost. That is, as the cost of attending the program escalates the more that attendance simply implies to adcoms high SES (not a positive). There is little doubt that RSI, WTP (for women), and MITES (for minorities) at MIT are highly regarded. RSI and TASP (for humanities) are completely free. Perhaps WTP and MITES are free too; I’m not sure.
SSP, UC Davis YSP, Simons SRP, TT Clark Scholars, BU RISE, and Garcia MRSEC are also highly regarded, but are not free. Naturally, as the cost of attendance tends to zero, the acceptance rate plummets. For example, the RSI acceptance rate is actually lower than that for MIT freshman applicants.
Finally, RSI, YSP, Simons, Clark, RISE, and Garcia frequently generate research that wins at the Siemens, JSHS, and (now defunct) Intel competitions. That’s definitely also a feather in your cap.
" (now defunct) Intel competitions" @whatisyourquest - Intel ISEF & Intel STS are still up and running as always, are they not?
^ I don’t think so. I hope that I’m wrong. My understanding is that Intel is no longer sponsoring the competition.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/09/technology/intel-to-end-sponsorship-of-science-talent-search.html
Just look at the past couple years, the people who got into all 8. I think they really exhibit what it takes.
The common denominator is usually just absolutely incredible accomplishments. There was an Indian girl who got into all 8. She made an app which could detect Parkinson’s disease with an insanely high accuracy (96%, forget off the top of my head). There was another guy who immigrated from Europe to US in middle school. He didn’t know a word of English. He later got a 2400 on the SAT and was valedictorian, all while having to take care of his mom. Both ORM, both got into all 8. You can google them.