<p>I am really glad he is back safely and with good stories to tell. You must be extremely relieved. But I am somewhat shocked by the ongoing behavior of the pianist and her mother; as I felt earlier this still seems to me not to be an issue of cultural differences so much as lack of respect for others, combined with ambition and desire for personal sucess, whether monetary or reputational. It almost seems as though Juilliard ought to be made aware of how close these people were coming to misrepresentation (and the treatment of the performers by the mother and her colleagues, although not exactly cruelty, just seems really inappropriate at times). Perhaps Juillliard might have a way of informally advising its talented students about how to be alert to the misuse of their talents and time at the hands of potentially unscrupulous or inexperienced organizers of various events.</p>
<p>binx- as I said earlier, glad he’s back safely. To say it was an experience would be an understatement.</p>
<p>I’m going to continue my previous methodology of trying to point out what a developing young professional musician should glean from this unique experience. It looks great on the bio/resume (…concertized in Korea,), and he proved to be a very flexible, and astute traveler. From your descriptions, I’d say he acted in a very professional manner… accomodating, prepared and willing to serve the interest of the performing ensemble.</p>
<p>What was apparent was the complete unprofessionalism of the main organizer, EnsembleMom (aka TheAllControllingEntity) and to an undetermined extent, the complicity of her daughter in this scenario. It is difficulty to ascertian whether the daughter actually solely as a messenger for the mom, or was in fact acting on her own (binx wrote: <the mother=“” of=“” the=“” pianist,=“” who=“” speaks=“” little=“” english=“” (which=“” means,=“” by=“” way,=“” that=“” email=“” i=“” received=“” from=“” was=“” actually=“” her=“” daughter!=“”>) .</the></p>
<p>What did not happen, which is a normal part of touring/performance was:</p>
<p>-being met at the airport by someone associated with the group or host<br>
organization, particularly in an unfamiliar country with language barriers</p>
<p>-participants not being given an itinerary (performance/rehersal times,
press/media/interview schedules, required participation in “group” activities,
etc.) </p>
<p>-the contract process itself, including the second contract which never did
appear.</p>
<p>It seems he had a good time. He got to see Korea, meet with fellow students, experience performing in a different cultural environment, received international exposure, and helped benefit a worthy cause. </p>
<p>What he did not get was the normal respect and consideration due in a professional business relationship. EnsembleMom did what she felt necessary to make sure she covered all her bases in dealing with the organizers, parent organization, charity supporters and media contacts professionally, but very simply she did this at the expense of the performers, apparently in an attempt to make her own impressions.</p>
<p>I hope your son reflects on the positive and negatives of this experience, and mentally files away the do’s and don’ts for future reference. Right now, he’s going from this haphazard execution to a program that will be probably run like clockwork. While the experiences are by no means identical, he’ll experience both ends of the spectrum back to back.</p>
<p>I agree with what Violadad wrote and earlier I just touched on the fact that this gig, which was a paid professional one was not handled in the normal way and that your son should have had his own contract that he went over to his satisfaction.</p>
<p>Having had a daughter perform with a half dozen symphonies in both the US and Canada, including the National Symphony, she had all the elements happen that violadad mentions. She was always met at the airport by a rep from the host organization and sometimes this even included a limo!! She always was put up in hotels. She always was given a contract ahead of the trip. She always was given an itinerary of her entire time there including rehearsals and show times, etc. She was given packets of information about the area for her free time, etc. As far as “warm up time/space”, she was given her own dressing room with drinks and food in it, etc. (which was quite a thrill to have her own name on a dressing room at the Kennedy Center walking down the hall of signed photos in that area of numerous world famous musicians (she was only 13). Your son can learn from this experience and know what to expect and demand the next time he gets involved in a professional performance contract and one that involves travel as well.</p>
<p>Thanks for everyone’s good wishes.</p>
<p>Violadad - I really, really appreciate your taking the time to itemize and analyze! It is really helpful, espcially in backing up my own feelings about what went wrong, and also in helping to separate the wheat from the chaff in terms of what to keep. That’s a great point that he might learn the “other side” through this summer festival. I think I might maybe make a contract check-list for future reference. Things we (he) never thought of to settle in advance.</p>
<p>Wow, Soozie, very impressive! My S has never had that kind of treatment. Since most of the time he’s playing he’s with a group, there isn’t a lot of individual attention. When he was younger (high school aged), and performed solo somewhere, I travelled with him, so tended to run interference as necessary. (He’s decided that, in the future, he will give people my phone number and say, “Call my agent.” 
)</p>
<p>I can only hope that my S will <em>remember</em> what he has learned from this trip. He can articulate it very well now, but the next time he is in a similar situation, I wonder how he’ll do. He is a forgive and forget kind of guy - everyone loves him, but (or because?) it is hard for him to stand up for his rights. The exceptions are anything to do with his horn or music. So if they want to drag him all over town and take pictures, or drop him in a foreign country without instruction, he’ll put up with it. When they mess with his warm-up time, he gets mad.</p>
<p>You know, he actually did have an individual contract, but does not have a signed copy of it. He signed it, kept a copy, and sent the original back to the sponsors for their signature, and never saw it again. Supposedly ACE has it (AllControllingEntity - Thanks, violadad!) They were supposed to give it to him at the airport, but since he never made it there, he never got it. It was a very basic, 2 page contract, that said essentially, you wil perform on these (two) dates, and we will provide your hotel and plane tickets. The additional 2 concerts were gigs added by ACE. She wanted to add more, but the kids protested.</p>
<p>The kids were given a “suggested itinerary” from ACE a couple weeks before they left, detailing how much money they needed to bring. Actually, ACE asked for the money in advance, so she could control paying for things! (The kids refused.) The kids complained about the cost of the activities, at which point we received an email saying they were only suggestions, and the kids could do whatever they wanted, and did not have to stay together as a group. Well, as it turned out, this was far from the truth!</p>
<p>Mattmom - this trip was not an official Juilliard function, and I doubt they’ll care. They have a career dept that my S visited, contract in hand. But all they really did was say, “Yeah, foreign contracts are tough.” No real advice.</p>
<p>The school does offer optional business type seminars, but I don’t know that my S has ever attended any. I think that during senior year (coming up) there is a required course that does cover a bit of this. Maybe he’ll feel a bit more motivated to learn some of this stuff now.</p>
<p>My H has theorized that ACE and her daughter got so mad at me for questioning things mainly because they wanted complete control and I threatened to disrupt it all with my questions. At the time, we were really confused by the vehement, irrational response we got. It makes a lot more sense in hindsight.</p>
<p>Binx…well, your son at least did have a contract then. But there was this middle man (lady) who really controlled things and so the agreement was between your son and who hired him but this other lady really held the strings about everything. I mean these are not minors which makes it worse. </p>
<p>I realize you are saying a group was hired but still there are times when individuals have a contract even so. The times my D performed with symphonies, she was not the only performer of the piece…she was a child actress and there was an adult soprano actress and there was the composer who also performed the work (conducted the symphony). Each had their own separately negotiated contracts with each symphony even though they were a mini “group” putting on this production. Each also had their own agent. </p>
<p>I think these experiences will help your son learn some of the ropes of the profession. Basically, I think our children learn through these experiences how to deal with the next one, even for some things that don’t have contracts. I can think of three projects this week alone that my D is involved in and her having to negotiate compromises with them regarding her time and the conflicts with each of her commitments. She is learning the art of the deal so to speak.</p>
<p>One more observation about the ACE. She is a very controlling and manipulative person, and appears to be completely self-serving in achieving her ends. </p>
<p>I can’t ascertain whether this is cultural, her parenting style, or her business persona but she clearly used her knowledge and experience to pull quite a few fast ones on these kids, correctly assuming they were professional newbies not knowing what to expect or how to be treated.</p>
<p>He should have had his copy of the fully signed (by both parties) executed contract delivered to him before he embarked. Relying upon the promise that he’d have it on his arrival affords him no professional protection. </p>
<p>I’m glad that he and a few of the other performers did put their feet down on a couple of issues. I’m sure not having all the participants there at the “presidential supper” caused ACE a loss of face.</p>
<p>Many of the conservatory/schools do have mandatory classes regarding the business end of performing. As with anything, some of these are far better than others. If schedules permit, it is a wise choice to fill in some electives with a few music management or business/contract law classes just to get a bit more than a layman’s overview.</p>
<p>Additionally, there are a few of the festival performing opportunities that have begun to add the business/entrepreneurial side of performing to their programs as well.</p>
<p>Binx, having been a wanabee prof musician at one point, I can tell you this is just the beginning! Tours are mostly poorly planned. Lodgings are mostly bad. Pay is poor. Musicians can be strange people!</p>
<p>The cruise ships? Most do it once and never again. </p>
<p>Even those of us who love our music so much we will do anything go to the back up plan because we just don’t get the respect in most cases. Even my friends who have made to to great symphonies and the highest levels struggle with money.</p>
<p>If this is what he wants, it will be a bumpy ride. Encourage a back up plan he also loves.</p>
<p>Juilliard as an institution may not care about what happened, but that should not stop binx’ son from getting the word out on these folks among his fellow students. Word of mouth is an important thing among musicians. It would be a shame if those responsible were able to take advantage of another group next year.</p>
<p>UCgradmary - I hear what you’re saying, and we’ve been round and round this many times (see the music forum on CC!), but there is no back-up plan. The key is in your “…he also loves.” There is no equivalent for him. This kid would rather busk in the subways than do something non-performance. All his eggs are seriously in one basket.</p>
<p>We talked “back-up” back in middle school, when he first began discussing his future in music. His teacher set us straight right away. There is no room for doubting. There are years and years down the road to pursue a back-up plan, but for now, singlemindedness is the goal.</p>
<p>For us parents, I guess the back-up plan is making sure we always have a guest room.</p>
<p>Bassdad, I learned after the fact last night that S had mentioned the trip to another student who said he wanted nothing to do with it, because the ACE was a control freak. Kid apparently had some previous (non-Juilliard) experience. Should have been a huge warning to S, but I believe it came after the deal had been done.</p>
<p>I think you’re right about the word of mouth, though. Especially because there were 4 kids affected by this duo.</p>
<p>Another lesson learned: find out about the reputation of the other party before sealing the deal.</p>
<p>
Or, to take it a step further, know WHO the other party is. All this time, S thought the other party was the sponsoring group in Korea. Therefore, his questions had to do with who they were, and what their role was. It never occurred to him to investigate the ensemble member who was the contact.</p>
<p>So all his questions were answered via her previous experience with the sponsors, which had been solo or with her sister. </p>
<p>I still would like to know the mother’s role in all of this. What stake did she have? Is she on the board of this organization? Or a family member? Or simply a stage mama, using other people in order to gain exposure for her D?</p>
<p>binx- Might I suggest cross posting a link on the music major forum to this post. There’s plenty of food for thought in your son’s experience and it might well serve others in looing at the many pitfalls involved in gigs, be they foreign or domestic.</p>
<p>Ok, violadad, I did. Would be great if our experience helped somebody else! This thread did take a lot of different tangents – The things you learn on the way to learning other things!</p>
<p>Binx-I hope his stay in SB makes him forget all about the Korea trip. He is getting a taste of our June weather. Hope he has his sweatshirt.</p>
<p>Just a little note to non-musician folks wondering what to expect on business trips. I remember my first business trip, I’d been working less than a year, was probably 22 years old, and was sent as our company’s engineering representative to oversee an installation of our beta (not quite ready for prime time) product. I was given the address of the company, and the name of the installation tech that would report to me. Had to find my way from the airport to the hotel and then to the company on my own. Met the installation tech in the lobby of the high rise. All meals were on my own, whenever we could get a break. My trips overseas later on were handled no differently. So pretty much most the business trips I took in my career were closer to binx’s son’s experience than soozietv’s daughter. (Though the only time I was around camera crews we were filming commercials, and I wasn’t in front of the camera.) I’m thinking if musicians normally get met at the airport and ferried around with a set schedule that even if they don’t get paid a ton they are leading a sweet life. Any backup plan might not be anywhere near as good.</p>
<p>UCDAlum- The life of a traveling musician is far from filled with the perks of being met at the airport, limos and hi-end hotels. With the exception of the top soloists and ensembles (or a fantastic manager), these points would rarely even be addressed in negotiating a gig contract.</p>
<p>What is apparent here is that what was promised was not delivered, or delivered partially. Promises were made that were not kept. Additional performances/appearances not originally stipulated were planned without all knowing. The itinerary was a well guarded secret.</p>
<p>On a business travel level, two scenarios are the norm in my experience. Either you personally or your reportee makes the travel and accomodation arrangements, or there is a corporate entity that deals with it. You normally have an itinerary of meetings, lunches, dinners, social requirements and contacts prepared.</p>
<p>In the case of overseeing a task, there is a chain of command/organization structure that can be accessed and consulted if need be. You can kick butt, take names, and can do whatever is within your level of responsibility to make sure the job/tasks runs as planned. Been there, done that.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, these aspiring professionals had none of the systems in place that normally support business travel. Nor are these issues and pitfalls usually addressed within the conservatory/performance curriculum.</p>
<p>This, like most professions, is a learn as you go experience. They are young entrepreneurs learning not only their crafts, but also how to become astute business people.</p>
<p>If it were all limos and first class flights, getting into Curtis, Juilliard, or any top-level program would indeed be far harder than it already is.</p>
<p>UCDAlum…let me assure you that the life of a performing artist doesn’t usually include being put up in high end hotels and being driven by limo. But, there IS a contract for professional jobs and certain things like rehearsals and other aspects are hammered out. In fact, for Equity Actors, there are certain rules that must be followed in an Equity contract that protects actors. Nobody said that all these gigs are high paid and involve limos and the royal treatment. </p>
<p>When my D performed with these symphonies, her contract never stipulated the level of the hotel or having a limo either. It did stipulate transfers, lodging, and travel, and the schedule, and the compensation. My D was (and still is) a nobody. But the fact is that in these PARTICULAR situations with these well known symphonies, they are used to having VERY well known artists appear in their venue with them. My D sometimes got the royal treatment because this was the norm for the high end performers whom they also deal with on a regular basis. My D was in a performance involving one adult professional and herself, and then the composer who also conducted. The composer is well known in the field. So, whatever they provided for him, they did the same for my D…some used limos. Some had really nice hotels. They always had private dressing rooms. But this was their norm for the biggest names in the biz and so that is how they handle their guest artists at these places. My D just happened to be one but she is NOT famous at ALL. We had no idea what to expect and so the couple of places that had a limo or one symphony put us up at a hotel room that was a huge luxury suite that we were truly in shock. Let me reiterate, however, that that is NOT the norm for most jobs, even professional ones, she has ever done. But major symphonies have guest artists that are very famous and expect this kind of treatment. She got the royal treatment as she was simply one of their guest artists but her contract did not stipulate royal treatment, just to be clear! She got paid very well and there were no expenses on our end and it was one big treat. Frankly, my D would have performed for free and had stayed in a Motel 6 just for the experience. But we did not balk at the pay or the treatment, LOL. </p>
<p>However, none of that is the norm for most of the work in her field unless maybe you are a Tony winner or something. But there ARE contracts at any level of professional work in her field. </p>
<p>Also, usually the performer has an agent. The agent brokers the contract and deals with the people who hire the performer. In the case of my D’s work with the symphonies, it was ALL done via an agent. Each person in the performance had their own agent, as well to protect their own interests. While the composer is the one who hired/cast my child to perform his works, the symphonies are the ones who brokered the contracts for her performances. </p>
<p>Most work in my D’s field does not pay that well and certainly doesn’t involve the royal treatment. However, there are contracts and there are agents and if it is an Equity gig, there are rules about these things to protect the performer. The job with the symphonies was not an Equity job though the adult actress is an Equity actress. My child is not. They treated her contract just the same, however, as they did for the name performers. There are all levels of work. Yes, it was quite something to have her own dressing room at the Kennedy Center with her name on it with food and drinks provided in her room backstage and to know how many famous people had graced that room before her. But truthfully, the norm for her, even in professional theater, has been sharing a dressing room with lots of people, making a pittance for pay, and long, long hours of difficult work conditions. Please know that what jobs like performing with the National Symphony are like, are not akin to other jobs that she and many other performers do in terms of the contract, conditions, and pay. It is mind boggling to even me how much she was paid for a one hour performance, for a child no less. Trust me, she is paid far far less at other gigs. I did not mean to paint a picture that the nice hotels or limos were the norm. But contracts, conditions, and preplanned schedules and so forth ARE the norm in professional performing arts gigs.</p>
<p>UCDalum:</p>
<p>Was your first trip to a foreign country? Big difference. Violadad is right, too, that no details were forthcoming despite being promised. If Binx’son had been told to take a taxi to such and such hotel, I’m sure he’d have been fine with it–as he had to be, as it turned out. It’s the trail of broken promises that caused all the angst.</p>
<p>My point actually was the promises in the first place. I was just pointing out in other fields there are no promises, no schedules, no contracts. I found it quite quaint that the first complaint was he wasn’t met at the airport, when I’ve never been met at the airport, whether here or abroad. Another complaint was not knowing his schedule, which, well, depending on the customer, I’ve run across also. You’ll note I didn’t bring up either limos or nice hotels. It’s nice the contracts, conditions and preplanned schedules are the norm in professional performing arts gigs. I’m just mentioning for those protective parents with adult children, it’s not the norm in other professions. (And that’s the reason most business people hate business travel.)</p>