For competitive schools, like T20s to Ivy Leagues or BSMD programs, does having more than two years of foreign language matter?
I currently only have 2 years of foreign language and I would rather take AP science electives than take an AP foreign language. Will this be damaging to my future college application? Should I self study an AP foreign language, or just take it in school?
Most competitive schools will expect at least 3 and preferably 4 years of the same foreign language, It is better to take foreign language courses in person at your school.
Agree with the above. The top colleges generally look for applicants to complete 3-4 years of foreign language in HS. If you want to look at the requirements/recommendations of any individual college you can google the school’s common data set and check.
Self-studying for an AP exam is not the equivalent of taking a HS class. Admissions officers want to see how students do in an academic classroom setting, not how well they cram for an exam.
Consider HS as a time to get a well rounded academic background. The time to specialize is college and beyond.
I’m worried that I do not have room for a third year of language because my school offers very little space for electives. Would taking a college course in foreign language have the same effect as learning in a high school classroom?
Yes…a college class should be fine.
What level have you gotten to in a foreign language?
Damaging in what way?
Then you should take AP science electives.
If you are concerned that you may not get into a college with a minuscule acceptance rate because of not having enough FL that you don’t really want to take, then consider what is most important to you in the long run. I don’t feel that not having 3-4 years of FL will automatically land your app in the reject pile if the rest of the app is very strong. And yes, all top colleges offer FL language courses so you can take a FL in college if you like.
I’m not sure this is good advice. You may not feel that only taking 2 years of FL will automatically put the OP’s application in the reject pile, but T20 colleges (which is what OP specifically asked about) say otherwise. Many explicitly list 3 - 4 years of FL as recommended. Have students been admitted to T20 schools with only 2 years of FL in the past? Of course, I’m sure there have been many cases. But recommending that a student intentionally take a less rigorous schedule than the colleges recommend is putting the applicant at a disadvantage from the get-go and will then require the applicant to be even more exceptional than is already required for those schools. Far better to make sure, as a baseline, that students meet the minimum requirements and recommendations of the schools to which they are seeking admission.
For reference, a random sampling from among US News T20 colleges’ CDS’s re FL:
#1 Princeton: 4 yrs recommended
#2 MIT: 2 years recommended
#3 Stanford: 3+ recommended
#6 UPenn: 4 recommended
#7 Duke: 3 recommended
#7 CIT: 3 recommended
#9 Johns Hopkins: 4 recommended
#12 Columbia: 3 yrs required; 4 yrs recommended
#15 UCLA: 2 required; 3 recommended
#17 Rice: 2 years required
#18 Dartmouth: 4 years recommended
#20 Notre Dame: 2 required; 4 recommended
I understand that you’re trying to encourage balance in this crazy college admissions process, but obscuring facts is not the best way to achieve that in my opinion. Frequently on CC I see well intentioned responses that promote what the responders want to be true about college admissions, but actually isn’t. Or I see responders that answer a student’s specific question with what they think the applicant should care about rather than what the student has actually asked about.
OP, what I might suggest, is that yes, you definitely should take at least 3 years of FL since you are interested in top schools. But try to also fit in classes you are passionate about if there is room in your schedule. Also, and I think this is what LindaGraf may have been getting at, you will be far happier and mentally healthy if you focus on your interests and passions rather than a singleminded focus on T20 schools which statistically almost no one gets into. So, in sum, take at least 3 years of FL in order to not unnecessarily close doors, but also try to get away from the T20 mindset realizing that there are hundreds of terrific schools out there where you will get a fantastic education.
OP, one question I have about your question is how you hop from 2 years of FL to considering AP. In most high schools, the progression is 1,2,3,4,AP.
By 2 years of FL, do you actually mean that you have taken FL3 and FL4 in high school? If so, no need to take AP if it doesn’t interest you. Colleges want to see that you have reached the 3rd or 4th year level of proficiency. If you’ve taken FL 4 already, no need to take AP.
So it depends on the college of course.
I think a reality you should keep in mind is that the Ivies along with most of the other private universities that make up most of the traditional “T20” are only a small subset of the US college world. And that subset in particular tend to do a lot of what is sometimes called general admissions, where you are not admitted into some particular major but instead an entire college, which is sometimes the entire undergrad program or sometimes a broad subdivision.
Among the reasons they tend to do that is that they value something sometimes called the liberal arts tradition, in which it is expected that bachelors-level students will get a broad, multidisciplinary education, and in fact will explore different possible majors before finally committing to one.
In that context, it makes sense they are often most favorably inclined toward applicants who have shown a high level of excellence in every core academic area, including the study of languages (which is not the same thing as having a second language proficiency). Of course different successful applicants will have their different relative strengths, but they get so many strong applicants of every type they can require most of their students to be very accomplished even in areas outside of their main strengths.
But again, this is all in reference to this particular small set of largely private universities. Outside of that set, you will find lots of colleges that do things like admit by major, or at least for some majors, and they may be more interested in applicants who are really strong in that area but not quite up to the same standards outside that strongest area.
And even inside the “T20” there is some of that–like, Caltech is more into mostly-STEM kids than, say, MIT, which is more inclined to want their students to also be quite accomplished in HASS. And so on.
But overall, when you are talking about those specific Ivy and similar types of private colleges, you are biasing the answer in favor of being at least very highly qualified in all the core areas in order to maximize your chances of appealing specifically to those sorts of colleges.
Spanish 3
I’m in Spanish 3 currently
So you actually have 3 years of FL. In my opinion, taking only 2 years of FL really adds an unnecessary weakness to a student’s applications in terms of T20 schools. But with the 3 years as you actually have, it’s really your call depending on the strength of your other classes and your interests. You can see what some of the T20 schools recommend in my post above.
In addition to T20 schools, what are the T100 schools you are interested in? Once you have that list (even if it’s very rough), you can look up the Common Data Sets (CDS) for each school to see how many years of FL they require or recommend. If they are mostly recommending 3 years (which I suspect is the case), it seems like it would be reasonable to stop at 3 years to pursue the AP Stem you said you are interested in. On the other hand, if they are mostly recommending 4 years, you’ll have to think more carefully about skipping that fourth year. Good luck!
Ohh thank you! I was not aware that the level mattered!
You’ve missed my point: The OP should take the classes he wants to take and not take FL just for the sake of college apps. I am very well aware that many top colleges recommend 3+ years of FL.
Should the goal in this student’s life be “take a class I don’t want to take on the small chance it will improve my app to Princeton.”? Or should the goal be “I’m really interested in these difficult and challenging science classes. I’d rather take those.” My opinion is that your childhood is fleeting and applying to college is very stressful, especially when students fret that they might not get into a school with a tiny acceptance rate.
This student will find plenty of excellent colleges that will want him with a lot of rigorous science classes and only 2 years of FL. ESPECIALLY if the rest of the app is very strong. He has to decide what his personal trade off is. And again, I will say that if the rest of the app is very strong, not having 4 years of FL is not going to automatically land him in the reject pile.
And in no way was I “obscuring” facts.
We know nothing about this student’s ECs, his family situation, his demographics, what kind of school he attends, what level of stress he experiences, the strength of the rest of coursework to date, what his teacher’s might say about him in their recs, or what his future goals are. Yes, colleges recommend, and gnerally expect various ccoursework. But they all use holistic admissions for a reason.
And all the colleges you listed offer many choices of FL, at the 100 level. So this student, if he is able to get in, may be much happier he took all four AP Physics classes in hgih school and then gets to take Croatian in BCS101 while he is at Princeton.
I am torn because I entirely agree with you that targeting what you think the “top” colleges want to see is a terrible approach to making educational decisions.
However, for completely independent reasons I believe studying other languages (academically) and unfamiliar cultures is a great idea for pretty much all kids. So I would like to see most kids do 4 years of that in HS, not because they think a college wants that but rather because it is a good thing in itself.
Most highly selective colleges prefer a broad general background in the 5 core subjects to the greatest rigor level possible, and many have FL requirements to graduate, even if not to enter ( which can often be avoided by an AP high school class). OP can filter out those schools if he wishes to avoid FL in the present and future.
I too see FL as a foundational course. Personally, I think high school should teach history, english, math, science and FL to all, regardless of a student’s current interest level. Just part of being educated.
While I wish we lived in a world of unlimited resources and value FL instruction, I think the practical realities of mandating FL would adversely impact broad segments of public school students. This negative impact would be most acutely felt by those in lower income communities.
Since that wasn’t the question posed, let’s not go off-topic