@momofthreeboys Even as media coverage shifts, you might be unaware of the impact of this and other recent influencers on the culture, policies, and practice of the education system. All our kids pass through that system, at least until they graduate or legally drop out. With Title IX, Federal investigations of colleges and universities, multi-level advocacy efforts, intersectionality in analysis, media such as The Hunting Ground and Missoula, and all the other factors coming to bear, the nation might very well be at a tipping point regarding rape. Many (not all) might change their POV and behavior surrounding rape. Rape. It’s a national teaching moment that might have deep influence. But, I’m not getting the sense you buy that, FWIW.
I completely agree, dyiu13. And I do not think there has bullying at all.
motherofthreeboys believe this was all due to drug, alcohol and rock and roll. If there was no drug or alcohol then our society would be all right again.
More often than not, it is the parents who instill core values in a person. How we treat each other, especially when it comes to how a man treats a woman, we learn that from our parents. We may blame it on TV or social medias, but the biggest influence still comes from parents. It is why Brock’s father was not more apologetic. He treated it as a normal course of growing up. He was more concerned about his son’s appetite than about the victim. I think that said it all.
I’ve told my girls to look at how their BF treats his mother. The way he treats his mother is probably the same way his dad treats his mom.
Yes I do not think this would have happened had large quantities of alcohol had not been consumed. Apparently the judicial system and the probation department felt the same way.
Is that what you tell your boys?
Unfortunately the wrong person passed out. If Turner had passed out, only one person would’ve damaged
Turner sounded very aggressive in the police report.
I agree with oldfort. That is a bad message to send our sons, regardless of what we believe. We want to teach them they are responsible for any actions while drinking or drunk. imho.
@momofthreeboys It also would not have happened had Brock Turner chosen to not rape. You’re right, the judicial system feels (felt) the same way as you. It doesn’t make it any less wrong. It just shows that Judge Persky is not the only one who is out of touch. Being drunk is not an excuse to commit a crime. You don’t get excused for murdering someone while drunk. You don’t get excused for robbing someone while drunk. You shouldn’t get excused for raping someone while drunk.
I’m also hoping this is the tipping point regarding rape on campus. For all the victims’ sake – and all the young men’s sake who are sullied/suspected of potential predatory behavior and reputation deserved really by the very few. But because those very few aggressors often get away with it, or receive inadequate or “wink-wink” punishment, rape persists on campus - and all young men are suspect.
I would love for this case to be embraced by all college men – and their parents! – in crying out. “Enough is enough. I’m not a rapist and I’m not going to be an apologist for rapists’ abhorrent behavior.”
Momofthreeboys: The thing I keep trying to understand is how, when you think this rape happened because of alcohol abuse, you seemingly express concern Turner won’t be able to drink because of his sentence. But maybe we all misunderstood that post?
You bet I’ve talked to the boys about binge drinking, drinking until staggeringly drunk, alcoholism and the impact on people physically and mentally, what to do with women that want them, but are probably intoxicated…you betcha I talked about that all…the…time. At minimum they could be arrested for drunk and disorderly or many things far worse. Of course I talked to them. Oh my, every parent needs to talk to their kids in a forthright manner regardless of gender. But it needs to start when they are about 15. I think there are very definitely parents with their heads in the sand. Probably parents who don’t know their kids are getting drunk off their asses at colleges across the nation and are vulnerable to a system that has systematically turned into the worlds largest jailer and a throw-away society. Sure there are a smaller percentage of kids that don’t drink…and another smaller percentage that don’t drink to excess but there is a huge percentage that do. Oh my, I would think every parent that is on this forum cares enough about their kids that they talk honestly about alcohol, drugs, sex…in addition to sports, music and art. It shouldn’t need to be asked.
I don’t think anyone meant that thisthread_ is bullying. I’m pretty sure the bullying comment referred actions like boycotting Turner’s friend’s band, petitioning to recall the judge, refusing to serve as jurors on unrelated matters in his courtroom, threatening the family, etc. Whether you consider those things bullying or not, they are different from this discussion.
Momofthreeboys, I don’t think you have any conception of what “bullying” is. Bullying requires some kind of genuine power differential, and some sort of direct interaction that actually affects the person you’re bullying. Criticizing the actions of the judge in this case, and criticizing the absence of any empathy whatsoever for the victim in the family’s statements, do not remotely qualify. Guess what, Turner’s parents and the judge are not spending their time reading Internet comments. All you do by using the word “bullying” here is trivialize what real bullying is. (For example, the former acquaintance of Turner, another swimmer, who wrote about remembering Turner calling him a “f-g.” That would be bullying.)
Besides, if comments on this thread and elsewhere actually constituted “bullying,” then this comment of yours would certainly qualify as bullying the victim:
You’re trying to have it both ways.
As for this reference:
If you mean the victim, this had nothing to do with her “sex life.” (So that would be another example of “bullying” under your own definition.) If you mean Turner, the phrase “handling his sex life” is a very peculiar way of describing “teach your sons not to sexually assault unconscious women.”
Momofthreeboys, are you saying that Brock Turner would not have raped had he not consumed alcohol?
Turner was very aggressive at the party. He didn’t have the opportunity to rape the young women who fought back when he kissed them. If no young woman had been helplessly drunk, perhaps he wouldn’t have had the opportunity to rape anyone that particular night. This puts the burden of preventing rape on women. I feel pretty sure most of us have moved beyond that idea at this point. We are holding rapists responsible for their actions, both the drinking and the raping.
It’s mainly a way for them to demonstrate their “superior power” over and contempt for women. In some ways, it’s basically the same mentality of a schoolyard bully who finds and targets the weakest, weirdest, or otherwise “different” kid in the schoolyard* only ginormously amped up.
- If the bullied target won't or cannot fight back to the point of giving him/her a bloody nose at the least, the bully will keep going after that bullied target. If the bullied target fights back and especially gives the bully a bloody nose or more, the bully tends to slink off, find, and target another kid who is perceived as weakest, weirdest, or otherwise "different".
While bad kids may not be the result of bad parenting, parents are still held responsible for the actions of their children legally up until 18 and by many in society thereafter.
The principle is not unlike the idea that the leader of a group, commanding officer of a military unit, captain of the ship are responsible for all actions/inactions of everyone under them…even if they may not have had direct knowledge/actions over some of their subordinates.
There are countless examples of such leaders, commanding officers, ship captains, etc who were seriously disciplined or even cashiered for the actions of their subordinates even if they weren’t directly involved in the action or even the selection of their subordinates.
The actual character letters from the parents and friends went well beyond all that.
Those letters not only prioritized how the convicted felon’s life was ruined, but also placed the blame for his actions on external factors including blaming the victim by bringing up her drinking which has absolutely no bearing on his culpability on his violent criminal actions that night.
I don’t know about you, but if some judges…especially old-school ones, parents from older generations, or some old-school teachers read such statements, they’d be rightly concerned that the letters overprioritized the convicted felon’s “ruined life”/feelings, effectively blamed the victim, and enabled a culture of avoiding responsibility by placing all blame on external factors like drinking, Stanford’s supposed party culture, etc.
Worse, the 20 minutes of action and ribeye steak remarks show a remarkable level of denial of the seriousness of the convicted felon’s crime and has the tone which would prompt some hardnosed readers to think “Call him/his family a whaaamulance!!”
If a family member had me look over such letters for a relative/family friend in the same situation, I’d strongly recommend completely cutting out those points and to keep the letter as simply as @fireandrain :
There wouldn’t have been this scope and level of outrage. And the family/friends wouldn’t have revealed the level of denial of their convicted felon’s actions or the fact they they don’t seem to get the gravity and heinous violent nature of his crimes.
Momof3boys, I keep reading your posts and keep on shaking my head at some of them.
I wonder if you have warned your sons not to get drunk because they might pass out behind a dumpster and an aggressive female might insert her fingers into their bodily cavity and take photos of his genitals and send them as a GroupMe text? If not, then you are not doing anything to fix
As a thought experiment, what if a female Stanford swimmer had put her fingers/dirt/pine needles into one of Brock’s private orifices when he was passed out drunk. I assume you would be horrified by it and I wonder if you would chalk the perp’s behavior up to too much alcohol?
When you worry as much about your sons being violated as the parents of college-age and 20-something daughters worry about their girls’ sexual safety, then rape culture will be a thing of the past.
The discussion on this board about the rape culture is important. It’s not bullying.
it would be interesting to see what college he will try to transfer to next year. Any school that accepts him would be in for a lot of criticism, justly.
Did he withdraw from Stanford in lieu of expulsion? Probably will need to consider a school with an auto-admit policy, to avoid a transfer application.