<p>Baelor: “Also, corporal mortification is no longer sanctioned by the Church except in very particular instances.”
This is off topic but does the current Pope sanction the TLMs? Also, could you provide some info regarding the above “very particular instances”? I really am quite interested.</p>
<p>I wonder how much Baelor really knows about Opus Dei. PLENTY of numerary members wear
the cilice. They shrug it off on their own US web site, but it is a form of corporal mortification. [Opus</a> Dei - PRESS ROOM - Opus Dei and Corporal Mortification](<a href=“http://www.opusdei.us/art.php?p=16367]Opus”>http://www.opusdei.us/art.php?p=16367)</p>
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<p>The Traditional Latin Mass has never been forbidden. If one wanted to celebrate the TLM (using a very particular Missal), under Pope John Paul II he required episcopal sanction. His Holiness has loosened those restrictions greatly, to the point where a priest can pretty much celebrate one whenever he wants so long as it does not take away from the other Masses completely – so long as the pastor agrees (parishes often have several priests; the pastor is the primary priest at a parish). </p>
<p>It is worth noting that the “Traditional” designation is necessary because the novus ordo Mass, or Ordinary Form (versus TLM an Extraordinary Form) has its official Missal in Latin, as do all Vatican documents. Furthermore, it can be celebrated in Latin, although it not often is. So “Latin Mass” is confusing because any Mass of any form can be in Latin. The TLM is also known as the Tridentine Rite, older form, etc. and is based on the 1962 Missal.</p>
<p>The declaration of H.H. was made in 2007. Original text: [Summorum</a> Pontificum, Litterae Apostolicae Motu Proprio Datae, die septima m. Iulii, A.D. MMVII - Benedictus XVI](<a href=“Summorum Pontificum, Litterae Apostolicae Motu Proprio Datae, die septima m. Iulii, A.D. MMVII - Benedictus XVI | Benedictus XVI”>Summorum Pontificum, Litterae Apostolicae Motu Proprio Datae, die septima m. Iulii, A.D. MMVII - Benedictus XVI | Benedictus XVI)</p>
<p>English translation: [Apostolic</a> Letter “Summorum Pontificum” issued Motu Proprio](<a href=“http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/b16summorumpontificum.htm]Apostolic”>http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/b16summorumpontificum.htm)</p>
<p>The corporal mortification issue is a bit more complex. “Mortification” is encouraged, and “corporal mortification” is seen as worthwhile and beneficial IF EXERCISED PROPERLY. It is that qualifier that in practicality prohibits most of what people would otherwise do in terms of mortification. After looking at a few sites, the Wikipedia one is actually interesting:</p>
<p>[Mortification</a> in Roman Catholic teaching - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_in_Roman_Catholic_teaching]Mortification”>Mortification in Catholic theology - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>Extreme corporal mortification is general discouraged, as the theology surrounding mortification is very, very complicated. This is the reason that I made my previous post. The Church views it as a good, but the possibility of harm resulting from it is understandably enormous. Therefore, that is why I said what I did, in the case of more severe mortification (flailing, wearing a cilice, etc.). So, basically:</p>
<p>Inherently = beneficial
In practicality = infrequent to rare because it must be done with a prudence and mindset that is also infrequent</p>
<p>On the other hand, if done for the right reasons (!!!), lesser forms of mortification – sleeping on uncomfortable surfaces, taking cold showers and baths, etc. are less objectionable.</p>
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<p>Some, not all.</p>
<p>The fact that they are wearing the cilice is not by itself problematic. What would be the problem is that they wear it without understanding why it is done properly, which I have a feeling that some do. It is a form of corporal mortification in the same way that fasting for a day is corporal mortification. They are not shrugging it off; they are accurately portraying how it is used. This is not a spike belt that punctures internal organs.</p>
<p>CLARIFICATION: My previous post’s mention of “instances of corporal mortification” referred to instances of extreme corporal mortification, which I assumed was the definition being adopted here. I guess I was wrong.</p>
<p>Thank you, Baelor. That was enlightening… I didn’t realize how much the practice was sanctioned by contemporary Popes. I really don’t understand how corporal mortification is worthwhile and beneficial but if it floats somebody’s boat which I imagine it does, go for it.</p>
<p>To whatever4, the OP: It sounds as if you have a lovely, close relationship with your daughter. I feel that keeping those lines of communication open is very important. As in your situation, I did not have the type of relationship with my own parents. I like to think that my daughter has benefited greatly from our discussions regarding relationships and sexuality. I’m glad she did not have to rely on sources like urbandictionary for her information.
In my experience, most doctors discuss sexuality and birth control with their patients as a matter of course. Also, most student health services will easily provide info and care if and when your D decides she needs it. </p>
<p>PS I apologize to other readers for the temporary hijack of thread.</p>
<p>No PROVEN link, but suspected: google “FNH”. DD is having liver surgery.</p>
<p>Just some quick input on Opus Dei. The most thorough and fair book on the subject that I have read is John Allen’s Opus Dei. I would highly recommend it to anyone interested in finding out more about this group. John Allen is perhaps the most knowledgeable reporter of all things Catholic. His book does a lot to dispel the myths about Opus Dei. </p>
<p>On the flip side, there is a website called odan, which recounts horror stories of former members of the group. While I don’t necessarily discount the experiences reported there, I would not take their interpretation of them as fact, either. </p>
<p>One of the reasons I think Opus Dei has gotten a lot of flack within the Church is because they hold the unique status as a personal prelature. John Paul II designated them as such and quickly raised the founder, Josemaria Escriva to sainthood. And of course, the movie the DaVinci code portrayed them terribly. </p>
<p>My opinion on them is like that of any other religious group- you can always find fanatics, extremists and nutjobs. Hannssen was clearly a mess- not because he was a member of Opus Dei, but because of the way he could and couldn’t integrate his life. </p>
<p>And the corporal mortification, which is of such fascination -(the cilice and the straps) do not break the skin and draw blood. Like Baelor said, they are only used under the direction of a spiritual director to ensure the person has the proper understanding of the spiritual purpose. I know someone (a woman) who wears one from time to time. It i not noticeable under her clothing and I can say that although I do not persoanlly care for this woman’s personality- she isn’t a wack job.</p>
<p>One more tidbit- Although the majority of Opus Dei members worldwide are regular low to middle class folks, their evangelization efforts do lean toward the well educated. They have elementary, middle and high schools and centers near major and pretigious universities. Here in Houston, the Opus Dei center is within walking distance of the Rice University campus. Here, also, like in many cities, they also run a downtown chapel and center to provide daily Mass and Catholic literature to people in the business heart of the city.</p>
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<p>Really? I wouldn’t be able to avoid concluding otherwise.</p>
<p>Cartera45- You would not know that she was wearing this and unless you knew her well enough, she probably wouldn’t tell you. I knew about it because she and I worked together for the Church and her membership in Opus Dei came up. I asked her about the cilice since I never met anyone who wore one. </p>
<p>My point was that OD members are not all raving fanatics who come preaching at you or telling you everything you do is a sin, etc… They are in many cases, indistguishable from every one else. Of course, their faith is the center of their life- but that is the case for many non OD members too, but they are just regular people on a casual basis.</p>
<p>No matter the reason or whether it’s visible or not, I think there is some pathology involved in self inflicted pain.</p>
<p>*I think there is some pathology involved in self inflicted pain. *</p>
<p>Totally, since that goes against human instinct to seek it. Feeling pain is one way some people need to feel in control or even to feel alive- pretty sad really, but there is help available.</p>
<p>This is precisely why the practice is not encouraged unless under the direction of a spiritual director. Because of the possibility of pathology. </p>
<p>The focus, however, is to bring the person closer to Christ- to remind them of the pain and suffering Christ went through for our redemption. Liken it to the Catholic practice of fasting on Good Friday- we don’t do it to lose weight- we do it to remind ourselves that the little pain we suffer from hunger is reminiscent of the enormous pain of JC.</p>
<p>There are many seemingly “weird” practices in many religions-rather than condemn them or criticize them, my approach has always been to try to understand them within their own context.</p>
<p>A certain mindset is behind any rationalization that is true- I guess it depends what the objective is- although you could also argue that the objective could be attained through more than one course of action.</p>
<p>I figured that Baelor would get around to telling us that if anybody left the group, then they wouldn’t be following the principles any more, and then they might have premarital sex. Which pretty much swallows up his whole point, I think.</p>
<p>Not at all. </p>
<p>But in the likely case that I have given the impression that I and my friends are exceedingly negative, I will correct that now. It is an extremely upbeat and positive group (in general, although we all have our different personalities), and this reinforces the lifestyle choices that we make and makes it easier to carry them out.</p>