I’m looking for some advice, and this forum is full of some really awesome parents. Sorry if y’all don’t like students in here.
My best friend of almost 9 years is a freshman at JMU as an engineering major. JMU doesn’t have a particularly strong engineering program, but she is struggling so much. She has never taken physics, and got a 1 on the AP Calc exam and a 2 on AP Stats. As of her first semester, she received a D in intro Calc and withdrew from Physics because she was failing. Now in her second semester, she is failing calc again and scraping by in Physics with a C-. She is already behind and must take summer courses at her state flagship (she is not from Virginia) to stay on track for a typical 4-year graduation.
I frequently get teary phone calls and face times from her and it breaks my heart because we are so close. She works very hard, studies, goes to office hours and goes out only when her homework is done. It will only get more intense as she moves through the program. She comes from a working class background and neither of her parents took the traditional route to college, so they don't completely understand the nature of these programs. Her parents are paying full OOS tuition and are enamored with her wanting to be an engineer. They don't see anything wrong and that she will work out the kinks along the way. There is nothing wrong with her work ethic, she is just not cut out for such a lucrative major. Her advisor is also pushing her to dabble in some other fields, but she is set on engineering. She got so overloaded one week that I wrote a 5 page paper for her and it was the only A she received in the class for the semester. I know this is unethical, but seeing her struggle and break down is so hard for me because she's basically my sister. I would hate to see her parents have an unnecessary financial burden in the event that she can't graduate on time. Not to mention they are shelling out money for the remedial classes this summer.
Should I give her some tough love? Am I wrong to think she is being weeded?
Wow, I’m so sorry for your friend (and for you by proxy). Sounds like a very, very tough situation. The sad fact is that math and physics skills are necessary for engineering and writing others’ papers for them is a gross violation of academic ethics (don’t do that again, at the very least). I hope her parents come around and she finds a more suitable academic path
Either engineering “clicks” with you or it doesn’t. Your friend should find something that works for her. For example, my DW was great at biology and chemistry yet struggled terribly with physics. I was great on physics and calc but chemistry was a disaster (I can’t even imagine how bad it would have been if I had to take O-Chem!).
It sounds to me like engineering is just not the right field for her. Her background (1 in AP Calc, no physics) as well as her current struggles provide all the evidence needed. I don’t think she is being weeded out so much as she is hitting a brick wall that she doesn’t have the background or skills to climb. I think she needs to quickly pivot into a field that is a better match for her aptitudes or she could flunk out of college altogether.
You are a wonderful friend for caring about her struggles and wanting to help. And I know you mean well, but I agree that you shouldn’t write a paper for her again…not only is it bad practice, but it could get her expelled if anyone were to find out.
Unfortunately I think your friend is already well past weeded. She definitely needs to consider other majors that don’t require advanced math. There’s plenty of other lucrative career paths that don’t involve engineering.
I agree with other postings. Math is one of those things that for any one person either it is easy or it is almost impossible (“clicks” as someone else said is a good description). Some people are good at math and really bad at chemistry and biology (I was a math major, and fell into this category). Some people are good at biology and chemistry and bad at math. My recollection of freshman physics is that it was quite closely tied to calculus (I wouldn’t want to try to study harmonic motion without using calculus), so these problems might be closely linked. I might also add as a math major, mathematics does not get any easier after calculus.
I am thinking that she very likely is not in her correct major. There are a lot of majors that lead to good careers that don’t require calculus at all.
There are a few cases where someone is missing a small enough piece that a tutor can fix the problem. This might be worth trying. However, I am thinking that your friend should think about what she likes and what she is good at. Math / physics / engineering might not be it.
By the way, personally I like to hear from students.
@pineapple1203
It is difficult to comment based on this much information, but I will try.
First, is engineering what she wants to do? If it is what she really wants to do, then she needs to back up and work on her math before doing anything else. Physics will be much easier once you understand the math.
Second, what was her ACT math score? How were here grades in Algebra, Algebra II and pre-calc? The most common cause of a student struggling in Calc is not having a strong understanding of all of that math that came earlier. She may need a teacher or tutor to guide her through a comprehensive review.
Third, if she has a solid base of preparation then the key to learning calc is to practice. A common misunderstanding is that many people believe that you either “get” math or you don’t. However, the truth is that math is much more about practice than ability. Get a tutor, and practice, practice, practice.
Fourth, if she really willing to work through engineering, she needs to see her advisor and develop an appropriate plan for her to be successful.
It could also be that she attended a high school with a low quality math department. Taking calculus in high school and presumably doing well but then earning a 1 on the AP exam is a big warning sign that something is not right. Unfortunately, poor skills at algebra, geometry, and trigonometry will make more advanced math like calculus and math-using subjects like physics and engineering more difficult.
http://math.tntech.edu/e-math/placement/index.html is a math placement test that can help her determine what high school math topics she should review (perhaps with the help of a tutor) before taking more advanced math.
@DadTwoGirls I agree, it’s best when students self-advocate. My friend just can’t see that things in engineering aren’t clicking. I’m looking through the JMU major list to find a major like @intparent suggested, so I can show her an alternative path that will still provide a solid career.
@Much2learn Her ACT math score was in the mid 20’s, nothing that would indicate a strength in STEM. Her ACT score was actually somewhat inflated by a high science score, which I believe was a 32 or 33. She got B’s in Algebra and Algebra II, and Cs in pre-cal and calc. I knew when she was entering college that engineering was going to be an uphill battle, but I didn’t want to discourage her before school had even started. I keep telling her that she needs to meet with her advisor more frequently, but she tells me that appointments need to be made a couple weeks in advance and it’s not worth the wait. (Not sure on the validity of this or if it’s just an excuse)
Thanks for y’alls advice. I think I’m going to talk to her about it and see if she would like my advice/help on finding a new path in college. She is doing fine (not exceptional) in her other classes that aren’t physics and calc, and it’s weighing her GPA down. I think switching gears will definitely help her B’s become A’s.
On the paper I wrote for her- I know it was wrong. I was scared for her mental health and wanted to alleviate some of her stress. I contacted her parents and roommate during that time so they were in the loop. She is from Rhode Island, and I am her closest point of contact. I won’t be doing assignments for her (or anyone else) again, and I regret hastily making a decision that could’ve gotten her in trouble with administration.
Math skills are a must for most engineering. Math is the language of engineering. You look at the physics of what is going on and then express the physical system with an equation (or series of equations). So, if you don’t understand and have a very good comprehension of the math, you’re lost. Unfortunately, math skills are built up over time starting really in elementary school. Your friend may have (most likely?) picked the wrong major.
Her best bet is to get into a study group. Tutoring and office hours help, but it isn’t enough. Spending many an hour with a study group will help hone one’s engineering skills. Having it explained from several points of view will also help as not everybody figures it out the same way and a study group will expose her to those alternative ideas and ways of doing things.
There are also many forms of engineering. My wife isn’t the greatest at math but understands chemistry and biology. She went into environmental engineering. She works for a large company and is in the environmental, health and safety group. She enjoys the work.
You are right, an ACT math score in the mid-20s doesn’t really indicate being math-ready for an engineering major. And Cs in high school pre-calc and calc are a sign that she is not prepared for college level math, especially not engineering that starts with calc and just gets harder.
Some people think they can will themselves to academic success, and she sounds enamored of the idea of engineering. And her parents aren’t helping. But it sounds like wishful thinking.
Soon enough the academic reality will hit. If she isn’t on academic probation yet, she will be. And she could be academically dismissed. If she is too stubborn to change majors, then you can’t really save her from herself. DO NOT do any more of her work for her. Do gently suggest that she look at other majors offered at her college. You can’t really do any more than that, IMHO.
@pineapple1203 Your friend is clearly not cut out for engineering. She needs to have that talk with her parents. Most parents would not want their child struggling so much. I’m wondering how she would like being an Industrial Design major. Is she creative and artistic at all? I mean, something attracted her to engineering–she must like to know the way things are built? I don’t mean artistic to the extent of indentifying as an artist, but Industrial Design is kind of in between art and engineering. She certainly could let go of some of the heavy physics and math that way, and thus much of the anxiety about it. Just a suggestion. Run it by her and have her think about it. If she goes to her parents with an alternate plan as she leaves engineering, it will be easier for them to accept.
if it was ONE course that she could hold her breath and pass on a Hail Mary that wouldn’t come back to haunt her…It’d be different. But what you’re describing are multiple systems failures. Basic building blocks that are foundational…that are being laid with big holes in them. That’s not good. Not good at all.
if you’re close to the family, maybe talk to her Mom? Tell the mom how much stress she’s under and how concerned you’ve been for her mental health. Maybe Mom will have a heart to heart and help?
If you’re scared enough that you’re willing to cheat…that’s a huge red flag.
Kids do commit suicide over feeling they can’t live up to parental expectations. Take this situation seriously.
You are a wonderful friend to care and try so hard to help.
Also…keep in mind that Engineering is a BIG major. Lots of engineering students take a super senior (fifth) year. Some even do it in six.
Suggest to her that she can have a very lucrative, scientific profession through Information technology or the MIS major - these don’t include as much math and no physics.
Hear very very mixed about JMU’s engineering program. And this is not the first story I’ve heard of a student academically not suited to engineering that’s been admitted there and started out with grades similar to your friend’s. I’m really wondering how it is that many of these students get into the program - are they having trouble attracting students who can be successful in engineering? Honestly the only option is to change majors NOW. In addition to the fact that engineering isn’t a good fit for her, she’s killing her GPA. And that will follow her to her new major, pulling it down from the get go.
And I think you know deep down that writing papers for her isn’t really helping her in the big picture, and could result in an academic dishonesty charge that makes her major choice a moot point.
Just to be clear: Writing a paper for your friend could result in an academic dishonesty charge against you as well. If that became known at your college, you would be disciplined for it. I hope that your good motives would be recognized, and that you would not be expelled or given some other really harsh penalty. But you need to understand that you put your own career and education seriously at risk by trying to help your friend that way.
A mid-20s ACT math and low math AP scores are a huge red flag warning she should have heeded. My son has impressive scores but had to drop advanced calc. It happens to many great kids. But if you struggle in all the basic building blocks, you do need to face facts: you won’t make it, and if you somehow do, your GPA may render you unhireable.
College and life are not meant to be a constant struggle. You should have some affinity for your job. Perhaps you could better help her by helping her explore other majors she and her family will find acceptable. Maybe instead if an impressive engineering degree, she majors in something she is more equipped to handle and gets an impressive graduate degree? I totally understand the familial expectation, and this would be a good substitute…
Do you think you could convince her to visit the career center? She could talk to a career counselor, maybe do some interest inventories. While you are a very good friend, you are probably limited in the amount of guidance you can give because at young ages, none of us were exposed to or even aware of a vast number of opportunities (majors or careers) that were possible. See if you can’t get her to go get a third party to help her.
