@pineapple1203 I was like your friend - was admitted to engineering with honors at a very good school, and totally crashed when I hit calc, chemistry and physics. After almost flunking out, I switched to the business school and ended up graduating with an Accounting emphasis, cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa, etc. What everyone else has said in this thread is true - your mind either “works” like an engineer or it doesn’t. The math in accounting never gets beyond basic multiplication and division! And it is a great career, and can open doors to other things. I eventually went to law school and the business background was a big help. My two cents!
Thanks for sharing your experience, cougheedog! I’m so glad I ignored my guidance counselor’s advice, “be an engineer, you’re good at math and science! They’re looking for women engineers!” The second sentence was absolutely true (probably still is), but I knew deep down I didn’t want to be in any major that was math and science heavy, even though I enjoyed physics in high school. I would add that even though accounting doesn’t require advance math, it DOES require a brain that has an affinity for accounting. I didn’t have THAT, either, although I traversed accounting on my way to an MBA. The concepts I learned in accounting were actually quite valuable, something I take for granted to this day. It’s certainly a major well worth considering!
The conversation about what career may be appropriate for her is one she should be having with her parents. I have a child with dyslexia, dyscalculia, and dysgraphia. Some subjects are more challenging than others. Should students like her give up every time they face a challenge? There are dyslexics in every field, and more than one (doctor, scientist, writer…) was told early in their academic life that they weren’t capable of pursuing their desired field. Very few people are incapable of learning.
There’s a difference between not being ready for a program now and not being capable of handling it ever. I don’t know if your friend has a learning disorder or just a weakness in math, but I’d address both the same way. Students who are struggling need to take the appropriate foundation courses and learn the material to automaticity. They may need to limit the number of credits they take each semester, and when affordability is an issue that can mean OOS achools aren’t an option. They may need to take a gap year and work on the foundation skills without a grade, or clock, or money hanging over their heads. Talking to her isn’t a bad idea. But I’d try to help her brainstorm ways to complete the major she wants, not try to convince her she’s incapable of completing it.
This thread title reminds me of my nephew’s favorite tee shirt, which reads “A friend with weed is a friend indeed.”
Sorry to interrupt.
i am sorry to hear about your friend’s struggles. i hope you and she can come up with a solution as i do not think her current path is going to work out.
i like @MYOS1634 suggestion:
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Suggest to her that she can have a very lucrative, scientific profession through Information technology or the MIS major - these don't include as much math and no physics. <<
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i have two nephews that did MIS. one went back to school for a 2nd Bachelors in MIS. they are both doing well in the field.
@ucbalumnus has a good point with
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It could also be that she attended a high school with a low quality math department. Taking calculus in high school and presumably doing well but then earning a 1 on the AP exam is a big warning sign that something is not right. Unfortunately, poor skills at algebra, geometry, and trigonometry will make more advanced math like calculus and math-using subjects like physics and engineering more difficult. <<
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it might be the case that despite what she and her parents want, she is just not cut our for engineering. but it may very well be the case that she could succeed, yet her HS left her woefully unprepared for it. do you think this might be the case? do you have any idea of the quality of the math and science at her HS?
is her state flagship URI? wouldn’t she have saved a bunch of $$$ just going there instead of OOS to JMU?
now if she remains dead-set on engineering, i am going to suggest some stuff that might be off-the-rails loco, so feel free to say “nah, i don’t think so” and stop reading, but here goes nuthin’
i wonder if she should re-boot her college career at community college for the foundational math and physics courses, plus the frosh/soph level English and liberal arts / humanities electives, that she needs to master in order to continue in engineering. once completed she could then transfer to URI or JMU or somewhere else, where she will be better prepared to complete her engineering degree.
she can re-take those classes she is struggling with now to she if she can get a better grasp of the physics and calc, plus replace the bad grades she is getting now and boost her GPA.
if her HS left her unprepared, perhaps taking the foundational coursework in a CC environment might help her transition more easily. does she live near a CC that offers an Associate in Engineering? my son was able to finish his this Fall but it was a brand-new offering at his CC.
two years at local CC would likely be less expensive than one year OOS at JMU or even one year at URI.
instead of taking remedial courses at state flagship this summer, perhaps she should make a strategic retreat a get a fresh start at CC, starting this summer. she might want to begin with Calc 1 this summer, or perhaps even relay the foundation with PreCalc 1 & 2 since she had only gotten Cs in HS PreCalc. 2 years at CC beginning this summer would give her the chance to complete the full sequence of PreCalc 1 & 2, Calculus 1,2,3, Linear Algebra, and Differential Equations. there should be lots of tutoring available which she should take full advantage of.
now if she does this and continues to struggle with Math, maybe engineering is not for her. but at least this will give her a plan to rebuild a solid foundation of Math and hopefully replace some of those bad grades.
if she has never had Physics before, i wonder if she should start with 100-level College Physics 1+2, before moving on to 200-level Calc-Based Physics 1+2
right now she is floundering and CC is the least expensive way for her to build the necessary foundation for the Math and Physics skills she needs to master if she wants to continue in engineering.
“I’m looking through the JMU major list to find a major like @intparent suggested, so I can show her an alternative path that will still provide a solid career.”
Accounting, Biology, Business, Chemistry, Education, Finance, Health Sciences, Marketing, Media Arts and Design, Nursing, Psychology, Social Work, and a few others.
You can suggest that there are quite a few choices. I think that she needs to pick one.
I agree with another person who suggested that you talk to her parents if you know them. She needs to be supported in her attempt to find an appropriate major, and it would help a LOT if she knew that her parents were on her side in this.
another issue is it sounds like her parents are stretching themselves thin financially to pay for her college. shelling out $36K per year OOS for her to bomb out of JMU engineering does not sound like a good plan.
i am going to double down on suggesting community college for 2 years + transfer to university for 2 years. yes it will amount to 5 years total but it will still be much cheaper than the very expensive disaster that is unfolding right now, that does not seem to be on schedule for a 4-year graduation anyway. plus she can transfer to URI or a good value engineering school like South Dakota School of Mines for much less $$$ than paying OOS for JMU.
Biology is a HORRIBLE career path to suggest randomly - few job prospects and super competitive - Art history anf English majors fare better than biology majors for jobs. Health Sciences aren’t too good either, unless you’re admitted to a direct admit program (like PT or OT). Marketing ONLY if at least minoring in statistics, Social Work is paid very little and requires a Master’s degree.
Every single engineering course is going to rely on a good understanding of math, especially calculus. She will not succeed by continuing on the path she is on. If she is adamant about continuing in engineering, like others have said, she will have to go back through all her math, starting with algebra, until she is capable of solving 90+% of problems on the first pass. It is just not feasible to sign up for engineering classes without that foundation.
You’re a college student, not a career counselor, neuropsychologist, or education specialist. You have no right to mess with this young woman’s head this way.
So many good posts. Notice the overwhelming trend? The school is not weeding her out, she is horribly misplaced in her choice of major.
Chemistry needs good math skills. Other majors may be more suited to her interests and abilities.
She definitely needs a trip to the student career advising center to take tests regarding aptitude and interests. With those scores and discussions with the people there she will be armed with facts to present to her parents when she has the talk about her choices. They need to learn that just because they think engineering is a good field it is not for her. She needs to get going on this NOW so it can be done by the end of the semester.
I hope your friend finds a new avenue.
Even IF she makes it through by some very slim chance, she’d be miserable in the workplace–if she can get a job.
At the end of school she would then have to make it through exams for licensure–don’t forget that.
She needs to bail before totally destroying her GPA.
Posters have made good suggestions for alternatives. I can’t help but think how much happier she would be matched to a career more suited to her talents. I’d put this as the focus.
I’ve taken some tough science/math courses along the way.getting my degree. A couple classes I just hung in there knowing it was a hoop to jump through to my final goal. Grit your teeth and soldier on. Stressful but doable. And a big sigh of relief when I passed.
But there was a big difference–I KNEW that the very few courses hardest for me would NOT be part of my career’s daily life. Getting through them were a short blip in the landscape. They weren’t foundation courses for my profession. If I had thought for a second that physics/calculus etc (or another hard subject I didn’t have an affinity for) would haunt me forever and only get harder? I would have been gone with good reason!
All of this discussion is focused on a “lucrative” career. Not everybody gets the salary listed in some website.
The trick is to be good at what you do and be happy doing it. Money is nice too. I’m not sure your friend will hit any of those three marks if she continues on her current path.
A couple of posters have made the assumption that the OP is a college student. According to her posting history, she’s still in high school.
Austin–I agree with you that just because you can’t do it now doesn’t mean you can’t reboot and be successful.
I’ve met people who have done just that. Kudos to them! They really did have a vision for themselves.
But to do that on limited resources means they need to be very real with themselves and recognize their limitations.
It’s a fall back to Plan B before Plan A goes to heck.
This thread is raising huge flags about confidentially for me. Way too much identifying and potentially incriminating information. It needs some serious pruning.
OP here.
I appreciate every one’s posts and I’m really grateful for the suggestions. I just want to clarify that I’m not trying to hijack her education, I just see so many red flags that have disasterous consequences. Her parents don’t think anything is wrong, and think she will work out the kinks as she goes along. They are very adamant about her getting this degree.
I'm actually not a college student, I'm a senior in hs. I 100% agree that I'm not qualified to advise her. When she was applying to schools she got rejected from many good engineering programs like V Tech, NC State etc. I posted this mostly because everyone around her is reaffirming her decision to be an engineer, and I feel like I'm the only one that is looking at this realistically. Her advisor has alluded to a major change, but hasn't pushed it heavily.
I truly appreciate everyone’s comments and have read them thoroughly. She’s not a bad student, but she’s bought into the engineering hype when it isn’t a good fit for her.
As some posters have suggested, I’d let her decide if it is or isn’t a good fit. We don’t yet know if she’s committed enough to engineering as a career to consider a reboot of the whole process (with CC likely in the picture) to give her the foundation she needs. There are a lot of ways this could go.
@pineapple 1203 wrote
“Should I give her some tough love? Am I wrong to think she is being weeded?”
You should be honest with her about her chances of success in engineering. Her profs are taking that approach by suggesting she look at other options. Based on her 1st semesters at JMU, do YOU think engineering is a good fit for her?
As for is she being weeded, does it really matter? The fact is she isn’t cutting it in the foundation courses for engineering. I’m absolutely amazed they admitted her without a single Physics class in HS - that’s incredible. And the fact she got a D in Calc 1 (which I’m guessing isn’t a good enough grade to count towards her major - it wouldn’t be at other E schools) does not bode well at all for future engineering classes. She just doesn’t have the skills needed to go forward in engineering and it seems like these skills aren’t easily acquired by her. That’s ok - there are many other paths she can follow.
But continuing to encourage her to in engineering seems frankly cruel. I’m sorry - I know you want what’s best for her. So be honest, she needs you to be that person who can give her a reality check.
“Health Sciences aren’t too good either, unless you’re admitted to a direct admit program (like PT or OT)”
I would think that a generic health sciences degree would accomplish relatively little. However, I didn’t search the JMU website in enough detail to know whether they are giving generic degrees, or if they have their students specialize in some subset that does lead to a job. I would have hoped for the latter, but I suppose that this is a leap of faith that I shouldn’t have taken. As a patient many of us have used a physical therapist, gotten services from a radiologist, had our teeth cleaned by a dental hygienist, and so on. I doubt that any of these pay as well as a Mechanical Engineer, but finding a career path that will work at all seems like a good plan at this point.
For a job one needs to specialize. However, this is true for engineering also. You don’t get a job as a generic engineer.
All of which brings up two issues: One question is whether parents are going to run out of money before or at the time that the student gets a Bachelor’s degree, or if a Master’s degree is a possibility. Also, talking to the career people at JMU (as was recommended by someone above) is a very good idea. Hopefully they will know which majors at JMU can lead to a career path in which jobs are available.
“Every single engineering course is going to rely on a good understanding of math, especially calculus…starting with algebra,”
Agreed. Engineering is not going to work unless algebra is about as difficult as brushing your teeth or saying “good afternoon” to a friend. Calculus might be as difficult as starting a car and driving a few blocks down the street. If algebra is hard and calculus is incomprehensible, then no form of engineering that I am aware of will work.
Unless times have changed, if she hasn’t passed calculus as a Freshman then there is no way that she will graduate in four years without a lot of summer school courses. Most engineering programs have a set sequence of courses. Many which will have calculus as a requirement.
I can’t image trying to pass calculus by taking a compressed summer course after struggling to pass two times in a row in a regular course.
Working with her advisor and career center (maybe try some aptitude testing to identify strengths) would be a good first start to determining a different path. I would also suggest that she visiting her tutoring center to determine if her study habits need improving. Many (like myself) were able to succeed in high school with poor study habits but strong determination and effort only to find that approach just doesn’t work in college. Part of the issue could be poor study habits. However everything you point to indicates that her math background just isn’t strong enough for engineering.