It really depends. I try hard to just listen and be supportive, but at times it does seem like a problem is easily solvable, but the person venting just wants to complain and not take any steps to improve things. Depending on the situation, I sometimes feel like I would be a bad friend if I didn’t offer some perspective or advice. For example, one friend has been having a very rocky relationship with one of her kids. Some of it is the kid, but some of it is how the friend reacts. She wants to vent about it, but at times I just can’t not point out how a different reaction on her part may have improved, rather than made things worse. OTOH, there are time when the kid is really being difficult, despite the parents best effort and then the only thing to do is to listen.
I also agree that it gets old really fast to listen to people who consistently complain about the same fixable issue, but who are unwilling to take the steps needed to improve things at all.
It is most difficult with adult kids. It is hard to turn off the mom mode and stop offering ways to make a situation better. At times, it is appreciated, but at other times it is really unacceptable.
I also agree that if you don’t want advice, you should simply say that it is not helpful at the moment so please just let me vent but that i might be amenable to it in the future.
I went through the parent portion of DBT (dialectical behavioral therapy) with my D2. One of the things they emphasized to us is that when your response is immediately to try to “fix” the problem or say it’s not that bad, you are by implication negating or invalidating the person’s pain. Often what the person really wants is empathy, and jumping immediately to advice or “fixing” is not being empathetic. They had us watch the Brene Brown video on empathy, which was helpful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw. For the person who wants to vent, receiving advice is tantamount to being told you haven’t handled this right and I would’ve handled it better and never been in this situation.
Agreeing, and adding…an extra challenge to successfully doing what you describe is when you’re faced with a loved one who is not being rational or realistic, or is making poor decisions.
It takes a certain skill set to be able to listen and acknowledge, even though you might not agree.
I can be rather matter-of-fact, and “realistic”, which can experienced as my being too blunt, not understanding, running roughshod…
My new tool is the phrase, “Hmmm…you may be right…interesting”
Ok, so I’m always willing to learn new things and I’m curious to see how @Corinthian would have addressed a situation that came up last night.
BIL: That all-potato diet I was on was working really well.
Me: Until you went temporarily blind from hypoglycemia, had to have an MRI, and then ended up in the hospital with a bowel obstruction.
BIL: Yes but until then I was really losing weight (says this as he loads up his third plate of food).
Me: You are not Irish enough to eat nothing but potatoes (trying to inject some levity because he won’t let it go).
BIL: I’m going to try it again tomorrow (says this huffily).
So the fixer in me is trying to tell him it’s stupid diet that nearly killed him, and I’d LIKE to tell him to stop eating so much, but I really don’t know what would be a better thing to say in this situation.
I’m leaning towards just avoiding him, because I don’t think he wants fixing and I can’t stand to watch him kill himself slowly right in front of me.
@MotherOfDragons I don’t think the empathy/validation advice applies to your scenario. It’s meant to respond to the person who is venting and expressing anger, pain or some other strong emotion. I’ve never heard of the all potato diet, lol. Diet advice probably deserves its own thread! No matter how well intended or justified it’s probably never received well.
I have a friend, whom I love, who you have to give her a heads up “I’m just venting” because she is a fixer (heck I am too!). What is most annoying about her fixes is her financial ones. She grew up in another country and sort of always fails back on (to me) “your family could live in a one bedroom apartment if you had to…lots of people around the world do” or “you can get a second job as a —[anything]–” to a friend who almost lost her house in the foreclosure crisis she offered to let their family move in which is amazing. But, also, once the foreclosure friend told us about her house EVERY purchase/cable bill etc seemed like a chance she could have “saved money.” It felt judgey.
My college psych professors expressly told our classes not to try to dabble in armchair therapy, so I don’t. I have a sibling who likes to say, “you may be right,” and I think it’s irritating. Pick a position. Keep it, change it if information warrants, but don’t imply you agree with me when you don’t.
Perhaps it’s just a NE perspective. New Yorkers tend to be very direct. She’s spent the better part of her life in a different region, so maybe that’s the dofference. I think it’s possible to be empathetic without agreeing with other people. I understand that she’s trying to acknowledge that what works for her might not work for me, but I’d rather she just said that.
"And the person who gave me the tip said, You’re not saying they ARE right, you are just saying they MAY be right. Try it.
I can’t if I deadfast know they aren’t right. Some people like to live in their own version of reality and are good at continuing their own version of the truth (circumstances of late are all to obvious of this), and they will latch on to a statement like that and use to further their own misplaced beliefs or ways. I’ll admit I’m a fixer and I dislike people who BS themselves and others. I can go into listening mode but I cannot tell someone “you might be right” when I know they are not. I can say “that must be difficult” or “I wish you didn’t have to go through this”. If they wound up venting many times about the same thing, I might even say “So, when are you going to DO something about it?”
I’m a straight shooter and I like straight shooters. Agree with your comments, @austinmshauri.
Not sure if the “dabbling in armchair therapy” comment was directed at me. I think the approach of @Midwest67 (“interesting . . . you may be right”) is fine for the situation when you don’t want to engage with the person. I’m advocating the “empathy” approach when you do want to engage and the situation is not a calm discussion of pros and cons but rather an emotional one that runs the spectrum from venting to meltdown.
Empathy doesn’t mean agreeing with irrational or false statements. (Classic example is when your kid screams: “you hate me and wish I’d never been born.”) My point is that when someone is venting, the first order of business should be to acknowledge the person’s emotion, whether it’s frustration or anger or whatever. (Yes that’s so frustrating/it must be difficult to have such a demanding boss/whatever.) @doschicos gave some excellent examples: “that must be difficult” or “I wish you didn’t have to go through this.” Then and only then consider asking if they want some advice. When you jump right into advice, it can come off as though you’re saying: “You’re looking at this all wrong.” or “you did something wrong or you wouldn’t be in this situation.” Which may be true but not helpful.
I think a part of this is highly dependent on personality and how one was raised. In my case, it’s a mix of liking to be helpful, preferring to only talk about my problems with folks for the express purpose of seeking advice/help in solving/resolving the problem on a positive note, and a strong intolerance for those who vent in my extended family* and among male peers** and older males in my old neighborhood**
Personally, I’ve also been inclined to consider the question “Why would I want to dump all my negative emotions on friends/same-aged or younger relatives/SOs IF they weren’t responsible for causing them?”***
While I’ve tried accounting for that upbringing when trying to be helpful with friends/dates, those influences are very hard to overcome.
Was considered a sign one was "lacking self-control", "discretion", and an inclination to spend more time complaining about one's problems than to act in solving them with minimal discussion.
** Venting was considered a sign one was “too emotional” and thus, not a good way to gain or maintain the minimum “male machismo cred” necessary to remain in good standing with them if one was a boy/young adolescent male. And this was reinforced with teasing or even outright physical assaults.
*** One exception to this are parents and older relatives as the former IMO implicitly signed up for this when they opted to become parents and the latter is part and parcel of acting in the role of younger relatives. A reason why I am far less irritated when the individual venting is a younger/same-aged relative/friend as opposed to an older one…such as a few older friends who act this way with me so often in the past I’ve limited contact with them and actually told one that “I’m not willing to act in the role of your father/older relative…especially considering I’m 3+ years YOUNGER than you and most of your problems is due to your long history of failing to heed/follow through on advice you’ve specifically asked for”.
Especially considering some of the worst venters I’ve experienced exhibit a variant of the highly authoritarian streak in the form of feeling entitled to vent at others without regard to whether the individual concerned is ok and has stated as such or worse, adamantly refuses to consider appropriate time & place considerations*.
Incidentally, this very behavior has caused some older college classmates who consider themselves to be “anti-authoritarian” in character to be tossed out of some progressive activist groups for among other things “exhibiting authoritarian/tyrannical tendencies”. And considering what I’ve seen of their behaviors…including the manner in which they vent…I can’t blame those groups for tossing them out.
I.e. Not in the middle of class, office hours, in public areas of the workplace where one serves customers/clients, on early dates BEFORE a relationship has developed, etc.
Yes, and also to put my comment in context, we were discussing the “You may be right” at a NAMI meeting where families were discussing ways to interact more effectively with loved ones who have a mental illness, and primarily using it as a de-escalation tool in conversations that usually turn into arguing.
Nevertheless, I did find it useful with my teen last month. She has some sort of super power in that if she senses I’m doing anything remotely like “active listening”, she’s not having it. I think she’ll only accept that from her therapist.
MOtherOfDragons,
I know about the potato diet from a patient, who struggles with trying to be anorexic despite 40 years of therapy and several hospitalizations. It’s hard to break thru irrational thinking.
In one of Plato’s Dialogues, Socrates was asked to give an example of something hard and something easy. For the former, he said, “to know yourself.” For the latter, he said, “to give advice.”
