<p>Sorry but I don’t agree. Having just gone through this process, I feel that there is only so much you can know by looking in from the outside. I don’t know the details in this case but, given the fact that it was not only the OP but also the educational professionals who were assuring him of success, I don’t see how this student should be faulted for lack of knowlege.</p>
<p>From my perspective, what the OP is saying is true. Yes, there are very unusual candidates who are accepted at all their top choice schools. Sometimes the reason for this may be clearly apparent: a student with a top record who also has a hook as a URM, perhaps someone who comes from a ranch in west Texas or the hinterlands of Wyoming, writes essays that are so far above the norm that they make the reader gasp, or who has a national award in the sciences. </p>
<p>But where does that leave the rest of the kids? I am talking about the “great” student who is a class val, strong EC’s, college and AP credits, all A’s, SATs of 2250 plus, either at a competitive public or a private where all the students go on to college. There are plenty of kids in top schools who look like this, as well as bucketfuls of Ivy and similar rejects. A particular student may or may not have a shot at a school, but he or she will not know until applying. There are so many factors that a student can do little to change. If a he or she comes from an educated suburban family, that probably won’t help his or her chances of being picked since this does little to add economic or racial diversity to the class. Moreover, if the student has a “common major” like biology or psychology (of course, common majors can differ somewhat from school to school but there is only so much wiggle room), that will not help them as much as if they had a strong background or interest in an unusual field. </p>
<p>The plain truth is that for most kids there is simply no way of knowing whether they will come up on the winning or losing side of the equation at any given school in the upper reaches. This is true even in recruiting situations. Our son went through a recruiting process at one Ivy, and was encouraged to apply to another because of connections made between his school and the Ivy Adcoms. Neither of these worked out. </p>
<p>The only protection against this kind of thing seems to be to apply to a range of matches and one or two safeties in addition to a plethora of reach schools. This becomes even more imperative if merit money is required. The list of schools that students applied to would not be getting longer and longer if it were truly possible to second guess the Adcoms. I’ve sat on admissions committees in the past but frankly can not predict what will happen to a given student when the odds become so dauntingly low.</p>
<p>I agree with edad. There is no way of knowing for sure, but a student increases their odds of admission when the student does appropriate research to find out information about institutional needs, and targets schools where the “fit” runs both ways. We can’t read minds, but there is a considerable amount of data available that can give a clue as to what a given college might be looking for - and we certainly can ask the right questions. Ellemenope’s post gives a good indication of the sort of knowledge that a musician might look for. </p>
<p>I realize that it is painful for an individual to get a rejection, and it feels a lot better to assume that there is nothing else that could have been done and the process is entirely random. But the reality is that the student who follows Ellemenopes advice and applies to MIT and Harvard, but not Yale, Princeton, or Stanford - because MIT & Harvard are the ones that want musicians simply has better chances than the students who simply choose the schools they like the best.</p>
<p>The one thing that a student can’t do is simply rest on their general academic credentials: ALL the applicants have strong academic credentials, so having high test scores, stellar GPA, top class rank, many AP courses is all meaningless. It gets the student in the door, but when the ad com is deciding which 1 of the excellent students it will accept for every 5 that it rejects – then the question is always going to be: what special quality does this kid have that we want? At that point, the kids who did their research to find out what the college valued, and tailored their application to emphasize that quality, simply are at an advantage.</p>
<p>Just so everyone knows - I applied to certain schools and researched them very well. My reasons for applying to these schools were legitimate. I am not only interested in music; I am very interested in science as well. I applied to schools even though many of them did not offer a B.Mus program, because I thought they had a strong B.A. and it did not compromise my interest in science.
Despite what all of you say, I did research the schools well - very well. Although you may not agree with the choices doesn’t mean I did not research well.
As far as I know, these schools do not “save” spots for majors, since people only declare their major by the end of sophomore year. If they did “save” spots, undecideds would never be admitted.
And also a note - some people seem to think my heart was set on Yale. It wasn’t. My heart was set on Northwestern. I don’t understand why Yale has become such an issue. I also applied to a number of other schools besides the three I listed.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for sharing. Andison had a devastating senior year when he was not accepted at any of the US schools he applied to & ended up doing a gap year where he worked very hard & pursued his passions. He applied during his gap year & has gotten some amazing merit scholarships & acceptances this year.
It is painful & amazing that so many wonderful kids have been rejected by so many schools this year. We do feel fortunate that my son chose a well-balanced list with his counselor & was accepted at half of his eight schools & rejected by the other half. Honestly, the competition at many schools this year has been extremely intense.
I’m glad you will be enjoying U of T–a friend’s daughter was accepted by many US schools but ultimately chose to attend a Canadian U, where she is extremely happy & saving her folks a LOT of money, even compared with the merit awards she was given at US schools). (She happens to be a Canadian citizen & goes have some relatives in Canada as well.)</p>
<p>Music_ofter: You did nothing wrong. Your advice to others is warranted. My son had a friend with almost identical credentials who was accepted last year at the same school my son was rejected from this year. People should not assume that others did not do sufficient research just because the poster had an unfortunate outcome. Why can’t people believe results may be random? When a school accepts less than 20% of the applicants, most of whom are very well qualified, the school can craft the class in any way they like - even using something as meaningless as eye and hair color.</p>
<p>I’ve noticed that a lot of people object to the use of “random” and “crapshoot” when referring to the top tier US college admissions, so I’m going to try for a greater precision of language. Admissions at these schools are <em>unpredictable</em>. I think that’s what the OP intends for everyone to understand. (And she can correct me if I’m wrong.) Of course admits are not totally random since they had to have stellar credentials; to say that admissions is “random” insults these hard-working students who do indeed deserve their acceptances. However, the point is that there are many equally deserving students who are turned away, and one cannot easily predict which ones those will be. Applying to six Ivies or comparable schools can up your odds of getting one acceptance not because it is truly a random game but because each application gets a fresh look by different people. The selection process begins anew. However, some people - especially those who have been accepted into these top schools - tend to buy into the idea that six Ivy rejections means that the student isn’t Ivy material. While that may be the case, it isn’t necessarily so. All it means is that sometime during the consideration process, another candidate was chosen. Six Ivy rejections is the same as one Ivy rejection.</p>
<p>I truly believe that everyone who got into the Ivies deserves to be there. Despite what people say, the legacy issue is dead. The only reason that legacy admits are higher is because those students come from families that value superb education. As I’ve said elsewhere on CC, my daughter is living proof that legacies aren’t given an edge. Her applications had everything, including excellent essays (she amazed both her GC and me, a professional writer) and two As from a top 40 national university. Her father and I know the admissions process intimately. She researched her schools extensively before applying and visited/interviewed at all. So any claims that students didn’t spend enough time on their essays or researching a “good fit” or not understanding the admissions process hold no credibility for me. Admissions does indeed become a crapshoot once the weaker students are weeded out and the true superstars are identified. There are simply far too many qualified students for each spot. Four years ago, Princeton’s Dean of Admissions said she could fill two equally qualified classes out of the denied students. Now, she might even be able to add a third.</p>
<p>Students and parents need to understand that a student’s qualifications get him to the serious consideration table but not necessarily to the admit pile. Rejections should not be taken personally. Instead, the student needs to plan for this outcome - and rejoice when he has several excellent options available, with or without the Ivies.</p>
<p>Thank you Momwaitingfornew. You have very eloquently summed up the sentiments that some of us have been trying to convey. I think it is easy for people who have met with success to assume they did things right and therefore conclude that those who may not have met with the same success should have approached the process differently. I agree that the use of “random” may not be best word, but I don’t think people used that term to mean that the people who were accepted by top schools did not deserve their acceptances. For every admit at these top schools, 4 to 6 equally qualified candidates were rejected or waitlisted. It just depends on what the school is looking for at that time.</p>
<p>The ones who seemed to be objecting to the use of “random” seemed to be those who got in, so I began to consider why that was so. I wanted to be clear that the unpredictability of adcom decisions in no way diminished the accomplishments of those who got in but rather explained some of the astonishing denials.</p>
Good point, Palermo. I find that some people, when they hear about where our older son is attending college, really quiz me about what he did and how he got in. It’s as if they are looking for a magic bullet. I usually describe his attributes and then focus on the really wide range of schools to which he applied. I point out that he was waitlisted at the school he thought he really wanted in the fall of senior year, and that that turned out to be the best thing for him. I also point out the “unpredictable” nature of admissions, and steer people to some of the books I’ve found helpful and to College Confidential. Yet I still sense the frustration of people who still just want to know what the one thing was which made a difference.</p>
<p>I, for one, don’t assume that he/we did anything in particular “right” except for selecting a wide range of schools. Especially since we have a HS sophomore, who is very similar to his brother academically and regarding ECs. But you just never know how things will work out, and with the tightening of the admissions noose, we’ll work hard to find a good variety of schools for him. But I’ll still think there is an element of luck – maybe the luck is that your kid has a particular EC the school is looking for that year, or maybe it’s the major they are declaring. But I don’t believe there is any way to completely control this process, and that’s where the luck comes into play.</p>
<p>Thank you Momwaitingfornew, that’s completely what I was trying to get across in my post. What I was trying to say was “unpredictable”.
Although I agree with you for the most part, (and I mean the MOST part), that most of the students getting into Ivies deserve it. I would say 95% do. However, I know some who got in where you are just scratching your head why they got in. It’s at those points when you really have to say you just don’t know what they are looking for.</p>
<p>You’re right. Sometimes the decisions seem perplexing.</p>
<p>From my standpoint as an alumni interviewer, it’s more a question of why someone <em>didn’t</em> get in versus why someone did. However, I can see why from your perspective it seems like the reverse.</p>
<p>Dear Music,
Thank you for writing and expressing your feelings. Your parents must be proud to have such an articulate and thoughtful teen-ager.
Our daughter’s teachers were stunned also. We spent two years as a family researching and visiting colleges (plane trips across country, etc.) so she could choose colleges that were “fits” for her. Her rejection and acceptance list did not make any sense at all. Amazingly, she got accepted at UCLA. I say amazingly because she had never visited and had absolutely no intention of going there. Her cousin “dared” her to check the box because it was so hard to get in there.
Well, we live two hours away, visited it two weekends ago and she fell in love with it.
Go figure…</p>
But that is because you don’t have all the information that the admissions committee has. You don’t know what was in the recs; you don’t know what was in the essays; and you don’t know what happened at the interview. So yes - from your standpoint, not having all of the information - it does look like the system must be random. But if you could be on the other side of the table, reviewing all the apps, then it would all start to make sense. You still might not agree with the decision - you might think that someone else who was turned away deserved the spot more - but you would understand what it was that swayed the ad coms.</p>
<p>Yep, calmom, I agree. And for sure, with many of those final decisions, there are some sitting around that admissions committee conference table that are in disagreement with the outcome.</p>
<p>I agree with Donemom. I also believe that adcoms are not infallible and that every year, some people do get admitted who perhaps should not have been. Just as some high school peers scratch their heads when learning that some schoolmates have been admitted to a college, so do profs at many colleges.</p>
<p>“The reason why I didn’t get in was completely random, I deserved to get in as much as anyone else who got accepted did.”
I think this is a VERY bold statement. You are not an admissions officer, and thus you did not see the applications of your competitors. There are many qualified applicants, and that makes decisions extremely difficult and complicated. That does not mean those decisions are random, however. The admissions officers spend countless hours reading application material, and they have a lot of experience on which to base their decisions. It is unfair of you to dismiss their careful considerations in constructing well-rounded classes. And by the way, your numerous grammatical errors make me doubt your supreme intelligence (though I believe that you are smart); it is certainly gutsy of you to say you are just as worthy of an Ivy as anyone else who got accepted. I mean, there are some incredible kids at those schools who have done simply amazing stuff–more than just get stellar grades and excel at an instrument.
I agree with you, however, that no one can count on getting in anywhere. There are countless cases of bright kids not getting into the top schools. I just think you have to allow admissions officers their dignity.</p>
<p>music_uofter , did you read any of andi’s posts last year? I highly recommend reading all of her posts from last year.</p>
<p>CC may need to come up with a caution directed specifically toward music students because of the strong connection between music and academic achievement. While athletes seem to understand that only olympic or international recognition will turn them into recruited candidates, music students do not seem to understand that the pyramid at the top is very very tiny. I know a handful of students just like you, music. Top in their school, playing in recongnized orchestras and interested in science. I only know one Olympic-potential soccer player (recruited to Harvard in October). I only know three olympic-potential rowers. Two have gold medals and one was recruited in October for Stanford and UCB f)full ride five year scholarship including intl airfare). The Book Prize is on a different level altogether and simply not as significant as you may believe. That is what posters are trying to say–without belittling any of your accomplishments. You sound like an amazing student.</p>
<p>Also, I agree the process may have randomness. One of the most outstanding students I have ever known was accepted into YP and every other school she applied to, but not H. Turns out H was her dream school too. It wasn’t easy for her to go to Y but I am sure she is thrilled with it now.</p>
<p>Interestingly, I thought the Ivy/highest LAC acceptances at my D’s high school were quite predictable this year. They weren’t quite as predictable last year, but the truth was that the SuperStars with a bullet and the two development cases had multiple acceptances, and the exceptionally BWRK or kid with regional recognition had one or two acceptances with multiple rejections and waitlists. The exceptionally brainy kids with great scores and a passionate EC with no state or national recognition had no acceptances. By SuperStars with a bullet, I mean these kids had SAT or ACT equivalent scores >2300 (most >2350 or URM + >2300), unweighted GPA >3.95 with at least 90% of the possible AP they could take, leadership at the school or regional level, AND one of the following: NATIONAL recognition for an activity, at least STATE recognition for athletics (recruited by Division I schools), or are a highly desirable URM.</p>
<p>My point is that SAT >2200, excellent GPA, a college book award (these are NEVER indicators of admissions, just a way to entice good applicants, despite what the OP thinks), and a well-developed EC are NOT guarantees of admission and are probably the minimum requirements for consideration for the un-hooked applicant to these schools because of sheer numbers of applicants nowadays. Having these credentials gets the student into the 5% acceptance rate pool. That’s a 95% chance of rejection. Getting accepted from this pool requires something else unique (goat-herding, cur?).</p>
<p>I’m sorry that you weren’t accepted to your dream schools, music, when you thought you would be, and when your school thought you would be. My D is a music/science kid who was accepted to Yale and other schools to which she applied. There was no audition process at any of the schools she applied to except our state school. She would have auditioned at Northwestern for the music school if she had decided to complete her application. So I don’t know what you mean when you said you auditioned at Yale. The Northwestern School of Music (I assume you applied to the dual degree program there since you describe yourself as music/science) is AS COMPETITIVE as conservatories. Northwestern accepts fewer than 25 students to the dual degree program each year. When the probability of acceptance is this low to begin with, unless you were a Van Cliburn winner at age 16, your realistic chances of acceptance to these colleges in 2006 were not communicated to you properly. This does not mean you aren’t talented and exceptionally bright, I’m certain that you are and that you could have done the work at these schools had you been accepted. It just means that the competition is much tougher than you were lead to believe. I hope your guidance counselors are more careful about their implied promises of acceptance to the next class at your school.</p>
<p>University of Toronto is a fantastic, competitive school. My D’s good friend hoped against hope she would be accepted there (she wants to study something in humanities), and she was. She is ecstatic. Best of luck next year as you embrace your future! With your drive, I’m sure you will accomplish all that you desire.</p>