<p>…or rate each other on a “kill, sleep with, or marry” scale. Those designations probably have some application to determining success in the business world.</p>
<p>Group grading is not good either. It’s overwhelmingly subjective, and I don’t think anyone’s grade (or part of their grade) should solely rest upon their peers rating them. The professor definitely should take that into consideration, though (as in - what parts of the assignment/project did ____ do? Did they abide by group-set deadlines? Etc). And what if there aren’t equal numbers of men and women in a course? Trying to “lessen” the affects/effects of sexism is an easier task than teaching people respect, but it’s not a solution. </p>
<p>I agree that sexism (and all forms of discrimination) will exist. That does not mean that we should allow it to happen or that it should bar anyone from pursuing opportunities that others have. </p>
<p>To the comment about foremothers being ashamed of women today being afraid to raise their hands (or, prefacing a question by “this might be a stupid question but ____”). Not every woman during that time had the self-confidence that the women who made change did, and not every woman does now. Not everyone can “turn the other cheek” when you’re in a hostile environment. You can substitute “woman” for any oppressed peoples and it will still apply. Kudos to you if you can, but don’t shame others because they can’t. </p>
<p>As a side note, this is why it’s important to teach respect and talk about discrimination when people are children. As in, having actual, factual conversations, with contemporary and historical facts and examples. And talking about different kinds of privilege and opportunity that some have any some don’t (and pointing out how said child had advantages and disadvantages). It’s not enough to just say “be nice, treat people equally”. (I’m not saying any of you did not/are not raising your children correctly… Before someone jumps down my throat).</p>
<p>I think we do a pretty good job in general of teaching gender equality in our society nowadays. I see a problem when 34% of HBS is foreign students, many of whom may come from cultures where women are still oppressed.</p>
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<p>One could argue that making one’s views known in a clear and forceful manner is one element of success in some fields, and that regardless of gender that’s a skill that should be fostered. Teaching students to perform well might be better than eliminating that grade component.</p>
<p>IMO, the need for such skills varies by discipline. If it’s a discussion about safety issues on a new airplane, you certainly don’t want one dominant individual driving the discussion and intimidating others into silence or unwilling agreement. I’m sure many terrible business decisions can be traced to that kind of group dynamic.</p>
<p>For someone engaged in a difficult M&A negotiation or a hostile takeover bid, though, being tough, dominating, and persuasive may be a plus. Investment banks certainly seem to favor that kind of personality, for better or worse.</p>
<p>I respectively disagree that we do a “good job” of teaching gender equality. If what’s happening in our society is a “good job”, then things need to be much better (just because we are not like other societies or have “better” conditions doesn’t mean we’re doing well).</p>
<p>CPU - do you think 50% discussion grade is not even more subjective if a professor had been awarding this from HIS memory?</p>
<p>50% participation grade shouldn’t exist PERIOD.</p>
<p>No participation grade. Papers or presentation grades only.</p>
<p>CPU - you should go over to HBS some time and report back to us. See if they are behaving. :p</p>
<p>Does anyone of the posters on this thread have a kid studying economics undergrad? Has anyone recently sat in on a higher level (smaller) econ class? If yes then you will remember that the front of the room is filled with males and females sit in pockets toward the end of the room. Discussion is generally dominated by males. If you haven’t been to see a classroom, ask a student. It’s “enlightening”. And this is undergrad where a professor has so much more control of the class. What can we, sigh, expect of HBS.</p>
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I will PROUDLY shame those women. No, not “every woman” can be a leader, but these women are at HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL and are TOO DARN SCARED TO RAISE THEIR HANDS?</p>
<p>Sorry, was I shouting? MAYBE the shouting was a result of the absurdity of feeling sorry for women who are too afraid to raise their hands in a classroom but are allegedly going to be rock stars in the boardroom. I would laugh if these women weren’t our best hope for the future of women in the business world. Now, I wonder if feminism was a massive mistake.</p>
<p>I say this as an extraordinarily shy, introverted former engineer - and I understood the first day of law school that “painfully shy” was going to get in the way of where I wanted to be in life, so I stopped being shy.</p>
<p>The article never said that women were afraid to raise their hands, it only said that all students went to a sort of info session where assertively raising one’s hand, along with other skills, was demonstrated. </p>
<p>It’s more akin IMHO to being taught to shout when you’re accustomed to using a normal speaking voice. No shame in that.</p>
<p>Geez, aries.</p>
<p>It’s possible to exhibit quiet leadership and to be the most persuasive or compelling member of a group by being the last to speak. Being an arrogant blowhard isn’t the only (or best) way.</p>
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You would think such an experience would make one empathetic…</p>
<p>I, on the other hand, can understood why a woman in the Harvard Business School would not speak up and raise their hand when they are subject to harassment from the majority in the classroom environment.</p>
<p>texaspg - don’t think I want to go over there anytime soon 
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<p>aries, wow. It’s clear you feel strongly shout this but no need to be disrespectful. It’s sad that you shame anyone for behavior that is not discriminatory, oppressive, or harmful. Your post just reinforces mine.</p>
<p>But aries does have a point. The way to handle this is not to become a delicate withering flower. You must adapt or fight it. If you become quiet and docile, you may as well just give up altogether.</p>
<p>I didn’t say anything about being a “withering flower” or being docile. It’s still shameful to have that opinion of another for not having the self-confidence that you have. </p>
<p>I personally don’t find that “successful business world behavior” to be attractive or endearing at all. Regardless of if the person can “switch it off” out of work.</p>
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<p>While this was somewhat the case at a few elite universities/colleges where I took courses/sat in on courses with friends who attended and moreso…my urban public magnet high school, it wasn’t always necessarily due to a clean gender breakdown. </p>
<p>It was more Type A with sometimes “jerky *******” added, exceedingly passive/shy types, and everyone else. Incidentally, the Vals at my HS were women for 3+ years in a row and more women tended to dominate the top 15% of the class…including my graduating class year. </p>
<p>Incidentally, there were similar dynamics in many classroom discussions at my LAC. However, they mainly were centered on who was more leftier than thou and most Profs had no issues with reining in the browbeaters…including using the “negative class participation deduction” card on them. Not to mention nearly every LAC classmate I’ve taken classes with were the exact opposite of being too reluctant to raise their hands in class or adamantly challenge their classmates/Profs when they disagreed with a point in discussion. </p>
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<p>That would be a horrible idea in this context if the alleged story is true. In practice, that’ll further the systemic discriminatory effects…especially considering the senior faculty/HBS administration seem to be condoning the hazing by the male Finance students according to the article. </p>
<p>I’m also not a big fan of group grading as from what I’ve heard from too many friends who were graded in such a manner…what ends up happening is that in an average group of 10 people…2-3 go getters end up doing the lion’s share/all the work while the rest of the group slacks off. The slacker majority coasts because the 2-3 don’t want their grade to suffer…and the Prof/instructors could care less in practice. Granted…all those experiences took place in larger universities with undergrad business school programs.</p>
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<p>Then you’re becoming part of the problem rather than being part of the solution to this very issue. </p>
<p>While I tend towards being one of the more aggressive students in classroom discussions, I hate it when other aggressive students browbeat others…especially passive/shy students…especially because THEY’RE EFFECTIVELY DEPRIVING ME OF AN EDUCATION BY SUPPRESSING CLASSMATES WHO MAY HAVE MUCH TO ADD TO THE CLASSROOM DISCUSSION. </p>
<p>In practice, I usually hang back and only step in if no one else has a given answer or offered a point I felt would add to the discussion or I feel the need to step up to ridicule and challenge the browbeaters to knock them down to size so the more intimidated classmates are able to feel more free to speak out and their ideas can enrich the class.</p>
<p>In a more extreme case at an Ivy class I happened to be sitting on at the invitation of a TA friend and his Prof, one student was browbeating other classmates to the point I couldn’t believe that Prof & TAs were oblivious to it and felt the need to challenge the appropriateness of the harsh browbeating tone she was taking with her classmates along with bringing it up with the Prof and TA friend in private.</p>
<p>I also have a friend who was the browbeating type I challenged harshly in college and later in grad school ended up having his Prof threaten him with being expelled from the university for being too harsh with making what was otherwise a correct argument. Ended up having to explain to him that in some cases…THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU EXPRESS YOUR ARGUMENT/POINT IS JUST AS/MORE IMPORTANT THAN THAT ARGUMENT/POINT ITSELF.</p>
<p>Note: Caps was meant to underscore certain points, not as online shouting.</p>
<p>Dominant, assertive men who monopolize conversations take one tactic. There are many other tactics that work better in corporate life and other types of negotiations. Humor, for instance, can be devastatingly effective, but doesn’t require a loud mouth or obnoxious presentation.</p>
<p>I totally agree with Hayden, humor can be extremely effective.</p>