Gender equity issues at HBS

[Booklady]

<p>Class, more than gender - a follow-up article: <a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/10/education/harvard-business-students-see-class-as-divisive-an-issue-as-gender.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/10/education/harvard-business-students-see-class-as-divisive-an-issue-as-gender.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[cobrat]

<p>

Dominant, assertive men who monopolize conversations take one tactic. There are many other tactics that work better in corporate life and other types of negotiations.

</p>

<p>Especially considering loudmouth yelling involved in the first is IME…often used by those who are so lacking in intellect or other skills that it’s all they have. </p>

<p>Personally, when someone tries using yelling, being a loudmouth, or pull the dominant BS on me, he/she’s acting a spoiled childish brat throwing a temper tantrum or is a crazed nut. In short…nothing he/she says from that point is worth taking seriously.</p>

[Inthebiz]

<p>The male-dominant classroom behavior starts early. When I taught a freshman seminar at a HYPS institution, the girls had a hard time getting a word in edgewise. The boys weren’t harassing, they were just very assertive. I jokingly suggested a day when only the girls would be able to talk. Not surprisingly, the girls all thought it was a good idea.</p>

<p>This is a difficult issue. Not sure how to solve it. At HBS, I agree with another poster that getting rid of the 50% participation grade would be a good start. Arguably, there should be a participation grade, but 50%? Yikes. At my top-10 law school it was 3%. And no one can say that argumentation and speaking skills aren’t important in the legal world.</p>

[cobrat]

<p>

The boys weren’t harassing, they were just very assertive. I jokingly suggested a day when only the girls would be able to talk. Not surprisingly, the girls all thought it was a good idea.

</p>

<p>Some of the Profs at my LAC did precisely that…though it was more telling the Type A types to dial it back at the risk of a “negative class participation grade” to allow others a chance to speak up and to call on those who are reluctant/shy to speak up. </p>

<p>Another approach was taken by older students who took the shy/passive first-years under their wing. An approach which meant that few, if any initially shy/passive students graduated as such 4 years later.</p>

[Inthebiz]

<p>cobrat</p>

<p>Those are good ideas. There are many ways to make it more comfortable for the shy/unassertive to participate and I used some with that seminar. But it’s not easy an easy problem to solve.</p>

[soccerguy315]

<p>if non-type A people (women or men) are not being heard when they have good ideas, ultimately the company loses out. A good meeting (or classroom) facilitator will allow everyone to be heard, and stop certain people from dominating.</p>

<p>If everyone in the meeting (or classroom) doesn’t bring value, then they shouldn’t be there (either, shouldn’t have been hired, or shouldn’t have been in that meeting).</p>

<p>I’ve listened to plenty of people blabber about nothing substantial at meetings. I find it obnoxious.</p>

<p>

In my 55 years of being female, Ive never heard anyone do so.
What kind of people do you associate with, that you find that hard to believe?

</p>

<p>… I find that very hard to believe. I don’t think you have spent much time around groups of females. They often talk about males and their various qualities, in my experience. I’m glad other posters back me up on this.</p>

<p>

Of course women rate men…soccerguy you get a 2…no I’m kidding, how about an 8?

</p>

<p>an 8 out of 5??? i’ll take it!</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Put a good looking woman in a business suit and place her in an office, and all of the heterosexual men are going to notice and imagine.

</p>

<p>Who wears business suits these days? How dated! Channeling Tom Molloy Dress For Success from the 1980’s …</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Does anyone of the posters on this thread have a kid studying economics undergrad? Has anyone recently sat in on a higher level (smaller) econ class? If yes then you will remember that the front of the room is filled with males and females sit in pockets toward the end of the room. Discussion is generally dominated by males.

</p>

<p>That wasn’t my experience when I was an econ major in the 1980’s. My daughter is an econ major too, but she attends a women’s college so that issue goes away.</p>

<p>But I call b.s. on this. I don’t believe this, at all.</p>

<p>Oh, and where on earth did we get the notion that “investment banking” is the sum total of the business world? There are lots of dimensions of the business world, and I-banking is just one of many.</p>

[sally305]

<p>

if non-type A people (women or men) are not being heard when they have good ideas, ultimately the company loses out. A good meeting (or classroom) facilitator will allow everyone to be heard, and stop certain people from dominating.

</p>

<p>Bingo. And even the most outspoken people in the meeting or classroom need another critical skill: LISTENING.</p>

[skiblack]

<p>

Who wears business suits these days? How dated! Channeling Tom Molloy Dress For Success from the 1980’s …

</p>

<p>Huh??? What are those outfits I always see women lawyers wearing?</p>

[Bay]

<p>Thanks, Booklady, for that link to the follow-up article. This is the biggest news I’ve learned on this thread:</p>

<p>

The Harvard Business School student body is at least somewhat economically diverse, with 65 percent of students on financial aid, receiving an average grant of $60,000 over the two-year program, according to a spokesman. (Tuition costs more than $50,000 per year.)

</p>

<p>I always thought MBA programs were full-pay for the most part (with some employers picking up the tab). Interesting that the large majority of HBS students receive FA.</p>

<p>Which leads me to my next take-away, and builds on ariesathena’ theme: At what point is the majority going to stop claiming victimization by the minority? A minority of the class is apparently uber-wealthy, but the rest feel marginalized and threatened by it? Women comprise the majority of college grads, but they continue to claim oppression by aggressive males in grad school? People have only as much power as others are willing to give them. I’m having a tough time feeling sympathy for HBS women who are afraid to assertively raise their hands and are offended that a man thinks about having sex with her. And for the <em>poor</em> crowd who feel left out because they cannot go on those extravagant trips flashed in their faces by Section X. Boo hoo to you, must be horrible living in that cushy housing in Cambridge.</p>

[sally305]

<p>Bay, it makes no sense to extrapolate to all students in all majors leading to all careers. We are talking specifically about women who want to earn an MBA to work in business. And there is a long way to go. Women make up 4.2 percent of Fortune 500 CEO positions and 4.6 percent of Fortune 1000 CEO positions. They are paid less than men–a LOT less.</p>

<p>

While labor economists Claudia Goldin and Lawrence Katz discovered only modest wage gaps for newly minted M.B.A.s, tipping of course in favor of men, the salary disparity hit 40 percent 10 to 15 years down the line.

</p>

<p>[Study</a> Examines Male-Female Wage Gap, Post-M.B.A. - MBA Admissions: Strictly Business (usnews.com)](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/MBA-admissions-strictly-business/2011/08/26/study-examines-male-female-wage-gap-post-mba]Study”>http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/MBA-admissions-strictly-business/2011/08/26/study-examines-male-female-wage-gap-post-mba)</p>

<p>I don’t understand how any woman or mother of a daughter could not find this concerning.</p>

[Cardinal_Fang]

<p>Bay, give a thought to why HBS hired stenographers for every single class. It makes one think that they didn’t trust the professors to adequately recall whether female students had in fact participated in class. Note that the women had been getting poor grades in class participation, though they had done fine on tests. And now that stenographers are there, so that the female students and their professors can verify that they were, in fact, participating , suddenly women’s grades skyrocket, and suddenly women are represented among the top students. </p>

<p>That sounds to me like an injustice being redressed. Doesn’t it sound that way to you too?</p>

[Bay]

<p>sally305,
Because women quit their jobs or scale them back to have families. Why is that so hard for people to understand?</p>

[Bay]

<p>Yes, CF, I agree with you, and note that I specifically did not diminish that idea. If the profs are the ones at fault, then shame on them.</p>

[busdriver11]

<p>“I didn’t say anything about being a “withering flower” or being docile. It’s still shameful to have that opinion of another for not having the self-confidence that you have”</p>

<p>Calling someone’s difference of opinion “shameful” seems a little odd.</p>

<p>The reality is, there are some male dominated fields where a woman MUST be self confident and assertive, or they are GONE. Certainly not all, but some, and if a woman cannot muster that up from within herself, she will absolutely not be successful. That’s purely the truth.</p>

<p>I don’t think anyone likes listening to a sexist, conversation monopolizing, over-aggressive jerk, in any field. Except for maybe radio talk show hosts and comedians, I honestly don’t know how that could get anyone ahead nowadays. They must hide it in front of the boss.</p>

<p>“an 8 out of 5??? i’ll take it!”</p>

<p>Now that’s a little over confidence, soccerguy!</p>

[sally305]

<p>“sally305,
Because women quit their jobs or scale them back to have families. Why is that so hard for people to understand?”</p>

<p>Because it is not the only reason. Apparently you didn’t read the link I posted.</p>

<p>

Two key findings—that men were more likely to start their first post-M.B.A. job in higher positions than women, and that women’s average post-M.B.A. salary was lower than men’s—held true even when those surveyed had no children. “From their very first job after getting their M.B.A. degree, women made less money than men,” Ilene Lang, president and CEO of Catalyst, says in an interview with National Public Radio. “On average, they were paid $4,600 less.”

</p>

<p>The article discusses the idea of “sponsorship” and its importance to women’s advancement. It makes a lot of sense to me. I would be curious to learn what you think.</p>

[Bay]

<p>Not me, sally, women who care about that extra $4,600 should do something about it.</p>

[busdriver11]

<p>"“From their very first job after getting their M.B.A. degree, women made less money than men,”</p>

<p>I wonder how much of that is due to not negotiating salary as much as men do. I’m not saying it is, I don’t know, just asking the question.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>[Class</a> Day 2013: Brooke Boyarsky, MBA 2013 - YouTube](<a href=“Class Day 2013: Brooke Boyarsky, MBA 2013 - YouTube”>Class Day 2013: Brooke Boyarsky, MBA 2013 - YouTube)</p>

<p>That was a lovely speech by Brooke.</p>

<p>It sounds like the smartest woman in that class took the easy route. Fiances have a bad effect. Its quite possible that wealthy family will get far more wealthier.</p>

<p>"Ms. Upton decided to take a far lower-risk job managing a wealthy family’s investments in Pittsburgh, where her fianc</p>