<p>Shaganov - Best of luck at Harvard. My daughter will be joining you there too (as a freshman) and I do believe that her essays conveyed passion too. I’d love to read yours if you would like to PM it to me.
Do transfer students go right into a House?</p>
<p>HH wrote:
</p>
<p>In all due respect, I don’t get this statement. The purpose of going to any college definitely includes getting an education. However, the education is the basis of going into whatever field one chooses, including politics. A school like Harvard looks for those who will make an impact on their chosen fields. This girl is interested in politics. But the same could be said about a student who will make an impact on the sciences, education, the arts, the world of literature, and many other fields. People with drive, motivation, passion and an intention to make a difference in new or exciting ways, not merely a desire to get a job…these are qualities they look for. This girl didn’t get in because she is into politics but it is what she has done with that interest and what she sees herself doing next and her drive to pursue it and to affect change. Going to Harvard will be about getting her education so that she can make strides in the political arena, her chosen calling. As well, Harvard wants students who are not there to merely study and “get an Education” but to be contributors to campus life and organizations and this girl ALSO intends to be actively involved and is a leader in many capacities. Colleges are much more than what goes on in the classroom. The selective schools don’t JUST want smarts. This girl has those and so much more. </p>
<p>Shag…the energy guy is a different one then. I think the kids in the Honors College at UVM would have been better for you had you stayed. Some who I know attend really are strong students and leaders. My D grew up in Vermont and really wanted to go to college some place new so had no intentions of applying to UVM. It so happens that she won the Green and Gold Scholarship at UVM for a free ride for four years which they give to all vals in VT, plus she was selected to the Honors College which is quite small (100 freshmen). UVM was not the school for her for many reasons but I do think it is a fine university (I once taught a graduate school course there as an adjunct) and it is unusual for a state U in that more students come from out of state than in state and it is not that big either. My kids think that Burlington would be a cool place to go to college if they were not from VT and wanting to try a new environment. I think you got a bunch out of your time here and so it was not for naught. Harvard will be completely different but each experience has shaped who you are.</p>
<p>Soozivevt, I finally figured it out: hereshoping, despite hoping, got turned down by Harvard and never got over it.</p>
<p>
Yes, you are. You’ve bought into a myth that has been generated on this board that the elite college only admit superstars with near-perfect stats. It isn’t true and never has been. Half of all the students the colleges admit have below-median test scores. It is a very subjective, human process, and many different factors come into play. </p>
<p>As a parent of a kid who also essentially leapfrogged beyond her “stats” in the college admission game, I have to say that the process simply isn’t as numbers driven as you might think. Sometimes its just a matter of heart, and sometimes it’s simply a kid with a different story to tell.</p>
<p>What a great story! Restores my faith in the whole college admissions process. Too many kids and spend all their time and energy striving for a perfect resume and are basically steamrolled over by the time they graduate. Harvard admissions officers have the smarts to recognize that “success” in high school isn’t the only mark of brilliance. For Shaganov: You go girl!!! Change the world!!!</p>
<p>I want to express a little annoyance about this thread. But before I get into that, let me preface my remarks by saying, yet again, that I think that Harvard is a fabulous institution, probably the greatest university in the world. My resume is Harvard-free, but I have 25 relatives, with whom I have (or had, some have died) a substantial personal relationship, who got degrees from Harvard or Radcliffe or were faculty members there. I have spent real time there, including a fabulous all-Barry-White party in 1978 that substantially expanded my sense of what hip was. I grew up knowing the words and tunes of “Fair Harvard” and “With Crimson In Triumph Flashing”. </p>
<p>I am bothered by the major theme in the revival of this thread. Both the posters congratulating For Shaganov on her acceptance and the caviling hereshoping seem to share the view that the Harvard admissions committee is the ultimate arbiter of merit in the universe. It isn’t. Many seem to regard For Shaganov’s acceptance as a triumph of justice and benevolence. It isn’t. Hereshoping sees it as unfair, and evidence that the deck must somehow be stacked. It isn’t that, either, although not being unfair doesn’t mean it’s necessarily fair, and the deck IS fundamentally stacked.</p>
<p>There’s no question in my mind that For Shaganov is an intelligent, personable, ambitious, energetic woman who is completely qualified to attend Harvard and to get the most out of it. Those qualities make her a winner on any scale, but I doubt they distinguish her much from thousands of other kids who applied unsuccessfully for admission or transfer to Harvard. Ditto her high-quality educational background, and her ability to enlist the help of sophisticated adults who know which buttons to push for maximum impact in Cambridge. She also has an instinct for the mainstream – Campus Democrats at UVM! Who woulda thunk it? – and quite a bit of name-dropping flash. In my experience, those are traditionally attractive to Harvard admissions, too. They really do want people who are going to dent the world somehow, and they seem to prefer that the dents be the kind that are reported in the New York Times. </p>
<p>But, even then – and of course I don’t really know – I suspect that there were plenty of people with all of those qualities in the pile from which For Shaganov’s application was plucked. What probably made the difference for her was one final quality, which has no moral valence at all: luck. She was lucky. And if someone else had been picked instead of her, that person would have been lucky, too. It’s not Harvard’s fault – it is so strong, and has so many attractive applicants, that in the end most of its admissions decisions have to have an element of randomness about them. Once she made it past all the rational screens – all the objective and semi-objective factors that established that she was the sort of person who could and would take advantage of what Harvard offers and give something back, too – her’s could not have been the only application left on the table. Something about it hit a group of people just right, or maybe she was everyone’s favorite second-best solution when they couldn’t agree on the first, or maybe they needed a female Government concentrator, or maybe they rolled dice. Maybe there were “connections”. Who knows? I think I know that it is unlikely that she was the “best” in any meaningful sense, because no human being could determine the “best” with any accuracy. She was deserving, like others, and she was luckier than they were.</p>
<p>Harvard’s founding generations developed an elaborate theology around that quality – they called it “grace” – and struggled with the question whether grace and merit were linked. As time passed, however, they grew comfortable with the notion that grace could manifest itself as public accomplishment. Now Harvard has turned itself – or had itself turned – into a public accomplishment in and of itself: one more very visible mark of grace that its impressive students accumulate. </p>
<p>But, please, let’s not confuse Harvard with God. When we congratulate For Shaganov (or anyone) on her triumph in the admissions process, let’s keep some other things in mind: Many, if not most, of the “losers” in that process are winners, too, and may not be any less passionate, intelligent, personable, educated, or ambitious than she. Harvard is a unique institution, but the opportunities it offers any individual are not unique. All those winners who “lost” in this round are pursuing very similar opportunities elsewhere – even, perish the thought, at UVM. And, in all likelihood, real change in the world is not going to come from the people who are interning for Al Gore or even Teresa Heinz Kerry. </p>
<p>(And let’s be clear: I heartily approve of Al Gore and Teresa Heinz Kerry, too. But I have seen a lot of people enter the maw of Conventional Politics and emerge years later as conventional politicians, and they wind up conforming themselves to the world much more than changing it – something it would be easy to say about Al Gore until a few years ago. And when they DO try to change the world . . . that’s when we’re really in trouble. Thank you, Mssrs. Feith and Cheney, two other distinguished winners of the Harvard admissions lottery.)</p>
<p>Speaking for myself only, I never thought this poster was more deserving or better than many who are rejected at Harvard. I agree that there is an element of luck when there are many more highly qualified and distinguishable candidates at highly selective colleges than spots available. I think this girl had it over some candidates but surely not all and I agree not even over some who did not get the nod. </p>
<p>As well, my own thoughts and comments on this girl really would have been the same had she been successful in her transfer admissions process at any very selective school, not just Harvard. It wasn’t the Harvard part that was such a big deal but that she had a successful admissions process at a selective school of her choice that she preferred for one reason or another over where she was currently attending. She seemed to seek a certain level of challenge and campus atmosphere that differed from the experiences she was having that were not as much to her liking and so I hope she has found what she is looking for and the atmospheres at both schools do differ, though smart kids attend both schools. </p>
<p>I also don’t think that an intern changes the world. But her internships are a stepping stone to her goals and I think she is someone who cares about making an impact. She seems like a go getter and a leader. I don’t know what she’ll end up doing but I think she is someone who will do something that impacts others. She may not be affecting much change now but she is young and on her way. </p>
<p>Anyway, I certainly agree that there are students who have it all who get rejected by the likes of Harvard all the time. </p>
<p>I also think that one poster’s misconception on this thread that this girl’s “numbers” were not as high as someone who was rejected is misguided as to what highly selective college admissions involves. The OP wasn’t better than all applicants but she had what it took. Surely some who got rejected also have what it takes. To some degree, there is an element of luck and unpredictability. Also, Harvard is not the end all and be all. This girl liked the school and so I am happy for her if she gets to go where she feels she would fit in and be happy. I’m also happy for the many kids I know who are heading to UVM this fall. I have no doubt that some of them will make an impact on our world some day.</p>
<p>I’m sure that For Shaganov can speak for herself and she will agree with many of the excellent points that JHS raises.<br>
I believe, from private correspondence with her, that she used her example to encourage others to apply for transfers, even to the most selective institutions, if they are not totally happy with the ones they are currently attending. And to underscore the fact that transfer into these highly selective institution is not an impossibility, she highlighted her not-quite stellar record. I suspect she would be the first to agree that an element of luck plays a big role in acceptances; though she was accepted at other highly selective institutions besides Harvard, so it is not entirely due to luck that she got in.</p>
<p>But the more important point that JHS raises, about fairness and unfairness still stands. Selection committees read many many applications for a variety of reasons. They try to be as fair as possible. But there is always an element of serendipity: something clicks with an individual reader but not with another (remember in The Gatekeepers, the adrep who saw his young self in an applicant?); whether the adrep is tired, sick, is reading yet another essay on the same topic, etc…</p>
<p>In the case of transfers, I’m assuming that contributions to the community as illustrated by ECs and “passion” play an even more important role than stats as the applicant will be joining a ready-made community rather than help build one. And it is true that many students have similar attributes to For Shaganov’s; but not that many seek to transfer.</p>
<p>Agree that JHS makes excellent points. I think he may be off the mark if he believes that so many congratulations in this thread are due to her acceptance by <em>Harvard.</em> I think the congratulations are for her charting a course, taking the steps to follow that course and being accepted to a place she wants to be. I think the congrats would have been just as congratulatory if it had been Tufts or U Montana (check out the wolfpiper threads if you don’t believe me). We parents like to see “our” cc kids succeed.</p>
<p>Hereshoping’s views highlight a phenomenon I have observed over the last year - the kids on the Transfer thread are, if possible, even more obsessed with perfect GPAs and SAT stats than on the regular “chances” thread. It is dispiriting, but I see too many of them diss others with the “information” that they will not be able to transfer into a selective school without a 4.0 GPA. You know the drill, “I have a 3.89… Have I lost all hope?”</p>
<p>My S is another transfer who got into excellent schools with “imperfect” stats. At the two most selective schools he tried for, he had a 50% success rate (and, guess what, he can only go to one school!). His GPA was 3.67, his Math SAT was pretty darn good but south of 750. His Verbal SAT was south of 700. It’s not all about the stats, hereshoping, and if you’re still hoping… you might want to focus on that. Sour grapes are not pretty. If you seek to transfer, you simply need to focus on who you are, what you want in a school and how those two things fit that school. Focusing on trying to be what they want is not a great strategy. Focusing on perfect stats isn’t either - many “perfect stat” kids get into their first choice school, but the adcom floors are also littered with applications from 1600SAT valedictorians who were not accepted.</p>
<p>No one here who knows me will ever be able to accuse me of being a great Harvard fan. I certainly am not (though I am less fearful of the school now that I have learned it is about to work on its Core and take steps to improve itself). In fact, I think the school is far beneath Princeton when it comes to its academic culture and overall quality of its undergraduate program. Indeed, I have made this point here more than once. </p>
<p>This has nothing at all to do with the school. If I recall correctly, this kid really wanted Georgetown too. Georgetown is a great school, but it ain’ no Princeton. Yet, had she wanted Georgetown, and then ended up at Georgetown, I would be every bit as pleased as I am now. The fact that this kid was in a tough spot, made some corrections, and then worked toward her immediate goals is what I find satisfying. Don’t really care what school is involved.</p>
<p>I don’t think the point is that the kid got into Harvard. The point is that a kid decided not to let a decision made at age 18 be deterministic in her life. So many kids take the easy way out… I’m not a science person so I won’t try calculus… I’m not a good writer so I won’t take a seminar on Tolstoy since it requires a 50 page paper every week; I didn’t go to an Ivy league school so I won’t bother applying for a job at an investment bank.</p>
<p>The issue isn’t who gets into Harvard and who doesn’t; the issue is the number of people who give up early on themselves whether for reasons within their control (as in the case of the OP as she readily concedes) or for reasons outside (family income, geography, divorce, or whatever.)</p>
<p>It’s nice to celebrate, even vicariously with a stranger, when someone takes the bull by the horns and changes direction.</p>
<p>Blossom, that’s precisely it! It really isn’t about Harvard.</p>
<p>The OP did indeed take the bull by its horns, changed direction, went after her pursuits, and has been successful in the next step of her game plan.</p>
<p>Blossom and Soozie: Let me add my voice to your interpretation of FS’s story. As I said way back on this thread, she reminded me very much of my own daughter, who also was not thriving in a school she had chosen. Like FS, my D learned the incredibly valuable lesson that you can change some things in life; that one decision doesn’t determine everything else. Like her, my D found a school, a very good one but not Harvard, that became the home tht she didn’t have the first time around.</p>
<p>I hope that For Shagonov feels at home at her new college home the way my D did. It didn’t have to be Harvard, obviously ,for me to hope that. What is worth celebrating here is that she was able to find a path which will, most likely with her newfound insight into herself, be a better one than before.</p>
<p>I don’t know. Some of the exaultation seemed to be about Harvard, or made a lot sweeter because it was Harvard. And hereshoping’s level of resentment seemed about Harvard, too. But maybe I read too much into things, and maybe I was just tired of too much HarvardHarvardHarvard elsewhere (including my home) and overreacted. Sorry. No disrespect intended to anyone. It would have been a perfectly fine story with a school other than H at the end. And it would have been a perfectly fine story, too, if she had decided to stay at UVM and to suck all the juice out of it.</p>
<p>Haha. My son is a Harvard fanatic. I just wrote the little post above to needle him in the side. In fact, he is looking over my shoulder right now, berating me, and longing with all his young heart to get into the second best school. HAHA. Well, to tell the truth, weve had the same debate over Harvard here in my home too, and its been going on for years. But it dawned on me some time ago that I could have had a lot worse things to worry about than my son going to Harvard. So, I support him, and hope he gets in. But if he doesnt, well, I wont exactly lose sleep about it. (grin)</p>
<p>JHS, I think the part that Harvard had to do with it is that in the earlier posts from last winter, some suggested that even Georgetown was a big reach for this poster and so, in a way, it is a success story that she went for it and got into the schools she was striving for, even Harvard, beyond predictions others provided back at the time. </p>
<p>Drossell, lots of people do like to either put Harvard down or if not, the name itself just conjures up all sorts of things for many people and if your son ever goes (and good luck to him if he wants to), there is some of this “stuff” that goes with the territory of saying “I go/went to Harvard.” I only went to grad school there but I still feel hesitant in certain situations to say so. I loved my experience, however! My mother-in-law went to Radcliffe.</p>
<p>My D chose not to apply to Harvard though visited in her junior year. It was one of her first college visits and at the time she was considering two different fields of study. Once she narrowed her search to schools that offered some sort of architecture major, which she had an interest in, Harvard came off the list. She attended a summer intensive following her freshman year in college at Harvard Graduate School of Design and loved it. However, when we picked her up and were walking around campus, she remarked that she was glad she had picked Brown and the actual college campus setting appealed to her more at Brown. However, I believe she will end up applying to Harvard for grad school when the time comes.</p>
<p>Drosselmeier:</p>
<p>LOL! Just tell your S that mine would have been happy at any of the 6-7 schools on his list, (though 2 do not have snow, so perhaps not). </p>
<p>What For Shaganov’s story reminds me of the most is the big fish/little pond thread. For some, it works just fine; for others, it does not. For FS, perhaps the biggest factor was not so much the academics as the geographical setting. For a politically active student, being in an urban environment is a big advantage over a smaller city such as Burlington, VT (which I happen to like a lot).</p>
<p>I love 2 things about Harvard:
The funny way people say the name of the school when you ask them where they went. It’s always with this huge, learned sense of humility. Sometimes they’ll kinda mumble it, looking away from you. Other times, they’ll say “Cambridge.” And often they’ll try to look very casual about it: who me? bragging about Harvard?</p>
<p>The second thing I love about Harvard – is the way it’s a perpetual, infuriating thorn in Yale’s side. No matter what Y does, it’s still outprestiged, outspent, outmonied by H. And it buggs Y to no end. And I find that just very funny.</p>
<p>Yeah. Well, I got a son here who wants to be a world dictator (<em>ouch</em> Man, get off me!!). Okay, a BENEVOLENT world dictator. He thinks a Harvard Dictatorship Degree LOL is exactly what hell need to learn how to properly step all over people. JUST KIDDING, JUST KIDDING!!! (Sons still here with me. Weve been discussing schools all this time. What a really great kid).</p>
<p>Seriously, I am not putting down this school. In fact, to help put my concerns to rest I recently talked with a Harvard guy, a really nice guy, and when we got around to Harvards Core and other stuff, he was refreshingly honest. The fact he was so honest caused me to believe him when he said Harvard was working to fix all these issues. It is gonna be tough, but at least they are working on it.</p>
<p>Okay. Im done with this issue. Lets all just kiss and make up. Of course, Hereshoping, Ill only shake hands with you. But the rest of you should know I am getting all touchy-feely and stuff with you right now.</p>
<p>Bye.</p>
<p>Drossel, </p>
<p>LOL! :D</p>