good choices; stressed, confused nonetheless

Parents Forum
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<li>I know we are lucky and we count our blessings daily</li>
<li>Perfect school for son would have been 5-10,000 students, NY or northeast, small university with some LAC feel, diverse, intellectual, fun but not overly competitive nor full of grinds. His interests are political science, math, biology, psychology, film studies, writing… thinking about public policy, public interest law, being a psychologist, helping people… listed political science as a major… </li>
<li>excellent but not superstar SAT scores, unweighted slightly over B average (C in french 5 in 11th grade), high weighted average, 8 total AP’s , good but not outstanding EC’s. Ruled out ivy’s on likelihood and he ruled out on principle as well. Advised that Wesleyan was a zero chance.</li>
<li> Our FAFSA is over the cost of a LAC. We were poverty lawyers until recently, so we have almost no savings, but now have inside beltway public interest law salaries in upper percentiles for past 5 years, saved for retirement in those years and 2 years prepaid college in Md.</li>
<li>2nd child special needs, $24,000 year tuition (lost school district case) we are 49 and 55. second son is 12.</li>
<li> S LOVES Boston, got accepted honors Northeastern with $12,000 scholarship. Accepted Brandeis, no scholarship.<br></li>
<li> Hadn’t considered U. Md. as anything other than back up in case of emergency (have never set foot on campus, but will visit soon) but getting harder to refuse-- accepted into Honors, given scholarship, total out of pocket costs will be about $45,000</li>
<li>compared to over $175,000 at two first choice schools, Oberlin and Vassar, if he gets in and we are assuming no scholarships.</li>
<li>He got in U. Wisc. but would rather go to Md. or NEU because… no interest in Wisc, ditto U. Mass. Amherst. Has lost interest in CMU and Skidmore unless big scholarships…</li>
</ol>

<p>I want him to go further from home (college park is 10 minutes away) to experience more independence and more excitement… but is that worth so much money? How do you weigh interdisciplinary possibilities for an interdiciplinary thinker like him at a places like Oberlin and Vassar against the size and resources of a large university like U.Md. and having a financial cushion for grad school, unpaid internships and travel? How do you go into debt when the markets look bad, when you are facing second surgery (unrelated) in a year and have a special needs kid to finish raising? How do you deprive kid #1 simply because he had the bad luck of having kid #2 need more resources? Agggghhhhh! (How do you get any work done and save the world in your kid’s senior year???)</p>

<p>thanks!</p>

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<p>The costs I mentioned are total over 4 years, minus the two years prepaid tuition ($16,000 in cash for non maryland schools)</p>

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<p>I’ll only address the 10 minutes away from home bit. S is in that situation and is very independent. He does come home more often than most other students, but that does not make him more dependent. And living on campus gives him all the excitement he needs (and sometimes, to my mind, perhaps a bit too much? :))</p>

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<p>I don’t know how you measure the financial impact; that’s a decision only you as a family can make. However, my d applied to Vassar as well, and to mostly small LAC’s or small Us with LAC feel (Rochester, Richmond). She did so because she knows herself and knows her learning style - small, interactive classes work best for her. She loves the give & take of discussions, and would despise having large lecture classes with discussion groups led by TA’s. She just doesn’t learn well that way. (Yes, I know people say that the large lectures are only the first two years, and then you get the smaller seminar-style classes. Her response: “I’m paying for the first two years, too. Why shouldn’t I learn something?”)</p>

<p>How does your son learn? Can he sit in on some of the freshman classes to see how he does, or whether he could do well there? What kinds of classes does the Honors program give him? Is it a fully integrated honors college, or just some enrichment add-ons? You may find that he enjoys the Honors benefits of Maryland.</p>

<p>As far as your second child goes, have you written to the financial aid offices about this “special circumstance” in your life? I know at least at Vassar that they do have some discretion in awarding FA. You may want to talk to them about your options; you can do so even before he gets in.</p>

<p>Best of luck to you.</p>

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<p>I can’t be too much help, as we are also struggling this time around with a decision. </p>

<p>BUT, as Northeastern is one of the schools (with the same amount of money as you) I can offer this:</p>

<p>When we look at the list for my son, and we come to NEU, it’s time to consider the whole concept of the 1 1/2 years of co-op. That is what is singularly outstanding about NEU, and it’s what differentiates it from the crowd. </p>

<p>My son is feeling uneasy about that much co-op. (I don’t happen to agree with him, but that is neither here nor there). </p>

<p>Anyway, I’m just suggesting that the co-op part of the equation be very heavily weighted for that school in particular.</p>

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<p>if your son does choose UMD, he might be able to spend a semester or a year away from campus (either on an exchange with another campus, or a study-abroad program). I don’t know what UMD’s policy is, but many colleges allow you just to pay your whatever you’d be paying to stay on campus, and they pay the study-abroad program. That might be a good way for him to get some independence while saving you some money.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>It sounds like your son is a smart boy, and knows what he wants. Maybe at this point you could let that guide you through the confusion. </p>

<p>I just read the UoMd Honors page, and it sounds like a great program:

</p>

<p>There’s a alot more about the specifics, and it looks impressive:
<a href=“http://www.honors.umd.edu/[/url]”>http://www.honors.umd.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>If he would get something out of it and have more money for grad school, internship summers, etc., then I would seriously consider it. I would visit and really talk extensively with the school about what the Honors program would offer him. After all, no matter how great the college experience, the debt incurred after attending the high cost LAC may limit his opportunities, not expand them.</p>

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<p>yes, what is weighing in favor of U. Md. honors is the actual list of seminar classes… all of great interest to him… his first college visit was to Lehigh and he was completely turned off. Then we went to Vassar and he LIT UP with excitement when he read the course catalogue, he just loved the names of the courses and the topics they covered!<br>
He likes seminars a lot (did AP comparative gov’t seminar style) but he sometimes likes to be more invisible; he is pretty good at sucking the best out of situations… he’s thrived in alternative schools, rural schools, urban middle school in transition, large urban-ish suburban school when in neither of the fancy magnet programs… he’s a quiet leader who doesn’t like to attract attention to himself… stage crew not a leading role, 10 years playing the flute but hates performing and is happy to do recitals with the younger kids instead of his age kids playing at higher level because he does it as a “hobby” rather than as a “career” or to “show off”… same girlfriend for a year and a half and they stayed part of a group of 4 tight friends…
I suspect the problem with U.Md. is MINE – I"m an overambitious, elitist something or other… MIT in the 70’s with lower SAT scores than he has on a full need based scholarship (1st generation HS grad, let alone college), then Columbia law on mostly scholarship, loans; my H the son of japanese immigrants also first college but not such an elitist. :wink: As my son points out – now we live in the same house, have similar jobs and share the same life… smart boy!
Thanks for continuing input, support and free therapy!
PS NEU coop not required for political science – it is one way to satisfy experiencial requirements… can also fulfill through moot court, model UN, internship… my son figures he would do, say, one coop, an internship and one of the other things…</p>

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<p>I’m sorry but I am having trouble hearing your son’s voice.</p>

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<p>Maybe he could do an overnight visit at both schools and sit in on classes - especially honors classes at NEU - to help him decide?</p>

<p>Is he looking at law school or grad school afterwards? What kind of programs and/or positions have honors students gone on to in the past?</p>

<p>You son sounds remarkably well adjusted, and remember, you worked at the kind of position for years that would definitely not produce an elitist child. So count yourself as a success in that area! He sounds like a really together, teriffic kid.</p>

<p>Both programs would probably be great for him. I’d narrow it down to his top 3-4 choices, and really have a heart to heart with him about what HE most wants, and let that guide you, labels be damned. It’s not like he wants to go to some terrible 3rd rate school and major in ultimate frisbee or doing beer bongs on the beach. </p>

<p>It sounds like he is a kid who is going to make you proud no matter what he goes into. While yes, a large state university make lack the prestige of the more name LACs, it will also probably have great facilities and he will be able to explore a lot of different areas. I see that the UMd Honors program has a year abroad option, as well as the option to take courses abroad, which certainly does not sound limiting.</p>

<p>Sounds like you have had a lot on your plate in your life, but that you have managed to pass on some pretty important values. Remember those values as you watch him make his way.</p>

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<p>"7. Hadn’t considered U. Md. as anything other than back up in case of emergency (have never set foot on campus, but will visit soon) but getting harder to refuse-- accepted into Honors, given scholarship, total out of pocket costs will be about $45,000
8. compared to over $175,000 at two first choice schools, Oberlin and Vassar, if he gets in and we are assuming no scholarships.</p>

<p>IF you were to spend the extra $130k on EDUCATION, unpaid internships, travel opportunities, two years of med school, two years doing volunteer work in Africa, a year learning to paint in Italy, etc., etc., there is absolutely no question in my mind that for about 90% of students (those without idiosyncratic academic needs), University of Maryland PLUS the additionals would offer a far, far better education (and I would have said the same if it was Princeton rather than Vassar or Oberlin). BUT, if the funds are not devoted that way, or, alternatively, you have additional funds for those extras regardless, then you have harder choices.</p>

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<p>Thanks moonmaid…</p>

<p>Mominva… you don’t hear his voice because I’m writing and I’m mouthy… one of his curses… </p>

<p>he’s the adaptable/flexible/resilient one in the family, coping with many family crises and moves, a difficult to raise younger brother, a dad who had been unemployed and an ambitious-save-the-world-trial-lawyer-mom who has had serious health-surgeries last few years… which is why we wanted him to go further away and not be around to have us depend on him so much!</p>

<p>He wishes he had more passions (so he has told us). So far his passions are for fairness, loyalty to his friends, responsibility and kindness, avoiding any signs of competitiveness except with himself or acting like a privileged kid, he likes John Stewart, movies like endless sunshine of the spotless mind and stranger than fiction, Phillip Dick, hanging out with me and my old MIT math nerd friends, playing devil’s advocate in any conversation, paradoxes, he liked visiting the Russian embassy with me and his AP comp gov teacher, he likes punk music and shops on-line at Think Geek, he hangs out for hours with his younger brother playing video games and creating his own role playing games that take over their lives and our house… currently extreme monopoly that incorporates all manga and superhero characters ever encountered… His friends consider him their rock, their problem solver… he has a remarkable facility for language that the public schools have pretty much beat out of him… he’s written several short stories for fun but hates stupid school papers… a solid talent for math and science that is unlikely to lead to major research (he pales beside the math and science magnet kids in his school in accomplishment, but comes close in aptitude)… he makes films for fun and incorporates his younger brother, the younger sibs of his friends… there is lots of laughter always… group projects for school get good grades and are great fun, he doesn’t always do the most work or take the starring role, but he creates the glue that holds the team together and catalyzes the creativity …</p>

<p>Other than that, I have no idea what he really wants… he HATES when I talk to him about it, he says he’ll go to U. Md. because it is such a good buy (but he hasn’t visited it yet, he says he doesn’t care), yet he also says Vassar and Oberlin are his first choices and I SAW how happy and engaged he looked there…At oberlin he loved the way Conservatory and regular students were completely integrated, he knows so many Oberlin grads and loves what they do in their lives… At Vassar he loved the lack of requirements, and the lack of conformity (no two people wearing the same vassar t shirt), he liked that he could take old english for his foreign language requirement… And he looked close to that happy at NEU… he kept saying he loved the energy, the diversity, the opportunities to explore life via coops… he loved the architechture at Brandeis and the professionalism and the way you could combine majors and minors… he ruled out schools that were preppy, or where you had to display wealth to be popular, or where drinking or sports were most important (except for large state schools, which have more diverse populations.) He has anti-Bush T shirts, Ramones T shirts, and T shirts that say things like “Obey Gravity, It’s the Law.” He has never, ever done a single thing because it would help him get into college, he has only done things because he was interested in them or to help a friend. He has stayed in touch with friends from most stages of life, from most places we have lived, and spends the summers visiting and staying at their homes.</p>

<p>Does that give you more of an idea of him, not me?</p>

<p>What’s weird is that I somehow feel… guilty… because if he were more needy, demanding, harder to educate we would force ourselves to come up with the money for an expensive LAC (as we came up with the money for S2, who needed private school while H was unemployed and my salary much lower, but we scraped it together, it was virtually a life or death necessity) so is it fair/right to “settle” for Md. because S1 is so easy? (that’s rhetorical, I suppose!)</p>

<p>Best possible outcomes: 1)We visit U.Md and S1 LOVES it and declares it, on his own, his first choice! or 2)Oberlin and/or Vassar accept him with sufficient scholarhips that we can do it without financial ruin. Outcome 1 ever so much more likely!!!</p>

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<p>silversenior, thanks, I think I see/hear him now.
He sounds like a terrific kid and the multi dimensinal foci and adaptabily will serve him well in life. Have you son take ownership of this decision.</p>

<p>Our oldest was trying to let the checkbook choose, but we felt that the budget friendliest place was NOT the environment where she would thrive.
We told her not to consider $ but to list the things she liked about each acceptance, and then her concerns specific to attending that same place.</p>

<p>When your son does a similar exercise, a leader may emerge, as it did for our D. Have him consider also, how he best learns, and if he sat in on classes, where he felt most comfortable.</p>

<p>My H was adamant about not being too strong an advisor. He did not want a miserable child coming to us and saying I chose XX because of you.
We were lucky to have the means to back that up. But you could do a similar exercise, once all offers are in, if you just take the financial undoables out of the equation.</p>

<p>Best wishes.</p>

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<p>I’m not sure NEU is the school for your son. My own D is there and loves it, and NEU is the right fit for her, so please don’t interpret my post as a criticism of NEU. However, the happiest students at NEU are very pre-professionally oriented - engineering, business, pre-med, computers. They come in knowing what path they want to pursue and pretty much stick to it from their freshman year on. They’re also hands-on types for whom the co-op program is ideal. Your son’s interest are more spread out & academic in nature (which is great) and I think he’d benefit from a more traditional liberal arts school with a central campus & lots of student/social interaction.</p>

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<p>Silversenior, your “mouthiness” has given a great view of your son. It sounds like is a great kid he may be trying to make it easier on the family by offering to go to UMd sight unseen. While the Honors program might well suit his needs, he should really thoroughly check out whether the school itself is a good environment for him. Maybe Honors is a gem, maybe it’s not, but visiting and talking with the profs and students is really the only way to go. One nice aspect is that he will be living with other Honors students. </p>

<p>In another 10 days or so, you’ll have all of your offers and be able to make the best informed decision. Until then, try not to stress. Take a lesson from your son, and have faith he will end up in the best place.</p>

<p>How many schools did he apply to, btw?</p>

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<p>thanks moonmaid, and forgive my online obsessivness today… soon to end when I take a conference call…
we are signed up to visit U. Md. March 30. He would actually never go to a school sight unseen! </p>

<p>He wound up applying to 10 schools as follows:
In the spring I got REALLY MAD at him (so unusual) for how passive he was being about the school search and he said, “But mom, you know me so well and spend so much time on line, and Z is so experienced (a mom of a friend who was counseling him and has been doing college counselling for 30 years) I’m just sure the list of schools you came up with for me to visit is a good one.”</p>

<p>So here’s where he visited, considered and applied:

  1. Vassar: Visited, loved and applied
  2. Brandeis: Visited, I wasn’t very interested at first, he loved, applied, got in.
  3. Lehigh: visited, he didn’t like.
  4. Bard: visited, he didn’t like, too small, too much focus on writing.
  5. Skidmore: Visited twice, liked, considered it “Vassar lite”, applied
  6. BU: visited, did not like.
    6A Tufts: visited, did not like.
  7. Northeastern: visited, despite my thinking it was not a good match, he liked it a lot, applied, got in, honors, good scholarship.
  8. U. Rochester: Grew up in and near rochester, finds it boring. Applied because he thought would get scholarship, academically good match for him. got in, no scholarship, does not want to go there, if he has to be near one of his “homes” would rather not pay $46,000 a year.
  9. Oberlin: everyone who has every met him calls him an Oberlin match. visited, Loved the school, hated the location. applied.
  10. Carnegie Mellon: hasn’t visited, but knows pittsburgh well. liked size and politics courses. applied, no longer that interested.
  11. U. Wisc. applied very early, knowing it was a good school, to have something lined up. Accepted very early, no interest now in going to wisconsin. Dito U. Mass Amherst honors.
  12. U.Md. you heard the story
    I wanted him to apply to Chicago or Cornell. He had his Chicago essay drafted in his head (we had talked about it several times) - at the last minute decided he did NOT want to go so far from east coast for school. He decided he did not want to be in as competitive place as Cornell. He actually paid MIT app fee and filed Part I, willing to be rejected, loved idea of studying humanities there but he missed an online deadline for an interview request when I broke my shoulder and we made peace with that (a real MIT applicant wouldn’t miss a deadline for an injured mom!) and he decided not to ask for any special treatment or extension. He was both very, very, very upset and very, very, very relieved to remove himself from the competition.</p>

<p>So there you have it!</p>

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<p>Friend at Brandeis loves it. He’s involved with an EC and doing quite well.
Your list is good. try to relax</p>

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<p>Our son is only one hour away but might as well be 8 hours.
He only shows up for breaks and then only for a portion of the time off.
He’s made many friends and a lovely girlfriend as well…spending time with M + D is low on his list.
In other words, the geography does not have to define his experience.</p>

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<p>my nephew ( and his parents) have loved U Md Honors program- he is in CS, a nerdy kid, but really found a niche for himself there. He will graduate in May. His home is in GA; top private school background. You might be surprised if you check the stats on how many OOS students go to U Md…I was when I looked it up.</p>

<p>I would think Vassar would be a great fit though. i tried to interest my d in that one, but didn’t succeed.</p>

<p>sounds like a great kid… a lot like my own d in terms of intellectual and social abilities and interests, easy-going; it’s maddening to get her to make a decison though! I know what you’re going through. </p>

<p>Seems like the profile schools esp should take into account the costs of private school for your younger child, relative to your finaid. I also have a younger special needs child, but with a good educational advocate (also costs money, but not as much as private school) I have been able to make public school work for him…so far. But I know the worry and uncertainty associated with planning for the future in his regard.</p>

<p>Any possibility of getting scholarship for your younger child once you have your older one in college?</p>

<p>Good luck and keep us posted!</p>

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<p>Just a thought on your description of yourself as elitist: I feel your pain! I’m the mom of an only son, now a jr. in HS, very bright, etc. etc.–could get into a top LAC, I’m pretty sure. But we’re older parents, won’t qualify for financial aid (or maybe only a tiny bit), and need to be realistic (don’t want him to have to support us in our old age). BUT I’m a Seven Sisters graduate from way back when the Ivy Leagues were all male. So I’m a college snob with a reformed attitude: you can get an excellent college education in many, many places. But like many of those old patterns (my dad was an even bigger college snob who insisted on Seven Sisters for me), it’s hard to shed my biases, especially when I am surrounded by people who want nothing but the Ivies. However–and I do think I am making progress–I am happy, and my son is happy, to be focusing on reasonably priced schools that offer what he wants (journalism). And if he’s a big fish in a small pond, I think he’ll end up with higher self-esteem than I did, struggling to be in the bottom half of my class of super-high achievers.</p>

<p>So go for Northeastern, or Maryland, or whatever feels best financially and otherwise. I want to hear a year from now–when I’m going through the same acceptance-time angst–that you are a recovering college elitist!</p>