Grating parenting issues with 9 year-old, will listen to any advice

Whatapainthisis · July 26, 2008, 9:51pm

Some of you may recall some of my earlier threads regarding my now 9 year-old son and his dance lessons.

He had shown an interest in tap after watching Riverdance. We selected a studio primarily based on the fact that it had a male tap teacher. Upon registering, I noted that the school was primarily a ballet studio, and asked my son if he’d be willing to try. He was willing. I did tell him that I would not buy his ballet shoes until he stuck with it a month.

The first day of class, a girl said “What is a boy doing here?”. He was angry after class, did a little “I want to quit” number, but ultimately then begged me to get the shoes. Did a little “take them back” number on me, but did follow through with the lessons. Like with gymnastics, he clearly enjoyed the activity when he got there.

However, my son made no effort to be nice to the girls after that, and they holed up in their dressing room most of the year. My son did get to be a coachman in a professional Cinderella performance.

On picture day, 2 weeks before the recital, a mother came up to me and said “How does your son feel about having to touch my daughter?”. I had no idea he was partnering, that’s how much he didn’t have an issue with it. I told her “He has no issue, he has a sister”, to which she said “Well, my daughter said that she does not like a boy touching her, and I explained that if she wants to be a ballerina, boys have to touch her”. Later, on the way home, my son said “I want to quit!”, and I told him that he couldn’t quit 2 weeks before the recital. I then said “Did it hurt your feelings that the girl does not want you to touch her?”, and he just nodded his head “Yes”. I then made some jokes about how those same girls will be running after him in 5 years, and he seemed to drop it. He did his performances.

After the recital, I asked him if he liked dancing, if he’d like to continue, and he said “Yes, but I want to go where there are boys”. So I have been taking him to meet other teachers.

The thing is, it is very clear to me that the tap teacher did an excellent job with my son. Granted, this was not a 1st year tap class, but my son learned a lot, and can still perform his whole routine without the music. I took him to a man whose student won a world tap championship, and he believes my son has potential.

My son has these “quirks” though. For example, he insists on wearing his tap costume to audition. Almost at the end of the dance, the man said “Ok, I’ve seen enough”. The man then talked to me about my son’s possible placement. Afterwards, my son said “Can I finish my dance now?” (kind of with a “tone” in his voice), the man said he could, and my son had maybe 10 seconds left to the dance! The man actually laughed at how little was left and my son’s insistence on finishing, was still laughing as we left. I could see in his face that my son was ticked!

Yesterday, I decided to take him to this “ballet conservatory” run by a male ballet dancer. This man is not from this country, comes from parent dancers, and runs the only studio in the area that actually has an all “boys’ class”.

He first spoke with me, asked me where my son had studied, and for how long. Now here’s the funny thing – I actually mentioned this place to my son’s ballet teacher once, and she made a face and said “Oh, I don’t even like him!”, which seemed out of character for her. Anyhow, this man showed no recognition of her name, even though she runs a local ballet school and is a dance professor at the local university.

I told him that my son’s still young, and that he mostly enjoys peformance and the costumes. The man made a point of stating that this is a serious ballet school, they do not have tap and jazz.

We went into a dance room, and he said “Let’s see what you’ve got”, and put my son through some plies, positions. I actually was pleased watching my son, it was apparent he knew what he was being asked to do with the steps. Then he had my son lay on the floor and he moved his feet and legs. He asked my son to relax his legs, which my son had some trouble doing, but it seemed that the man was checking his flexibility and tone.

He then asked my son to wait outside of the room while he spoke to me. He said “Your son does not know anything about ballet. Your son either needs to stay with 'Ms. Gggeeegggeeee (not her name!) or come here. He would be welcome. But there would be no tap or jazz. See this pole here (a thin pole)? This is tap. See this pole (thick)? This is ballet. Your son seems intelligent, he has a nice turn-out, and has very nice tone, even of the thighs, which is not often found. (My son has 3 years gymnastics). He may have a gift. But if he wants to do tap and dress up, he probably should stay with Ms. Gggeeegggeee. He’s already 9, so if he comes here, I’d start him in Level 3, with 3 classes a week. 1 class with the boys only, 2 classes mixed. If after 2 months, he can’t keep up, then maybe he should go down to 2 classes.”

When I got home, his secretary called to inform me that I can register now.

I really do not know what to think, what to do. I am getting the feeling that he is at a critical age for dance. I see that summer intensives begin at about age 11 for those interested in professional careers. There is a part of me that believes that he may actually have the capacity to go far with dance. It seems logical that he’d go further in the care of a man who would train him with other boys 3x a week, rather than if I let him stay in a studio with a woman teacher and no boys. Would I be doing him a disservice if I don’t send him there… Or not? His ballet teacher was very nurturing, and I really liked the tap teacher. If my son really “does not know ballet”, then why start him at such a high level? Hmmm… And will going 3x a week make my son hate it? It was so nice taking him 1x a week and having a hot cocoa break in between classes…

And what of sacrificing the tap by going to a place with only ballet? And what if he expected to quit gymnastics? Maybe I should forget ballet and send him to the man who trained a world tap champion?

This past year, my son had entered his 3rd year of gymnastics. Mysteriously, he stopped complaining about going. We were also told that he might be invited to try out for the team. He was. At his end of the year performance, he appeared to be the best in his class.

We were invited to let him attend “pre-team” for 4 out of 8 weeks this summer, 2 hours a day, 4 days a week, to see if he can make the team. I took my time about signing him up, but he nagged me, so I did.

Well… now that he apparently is no longer “the top dog” and so he “hates gymnastics”.

One day as I was entering to get him, a boy said “Your son won’t say goodbye to anybody”. When I got my son, I asked him why, he saw who the kid was. He put his fingers in his ears, wagged his fingers, blew raspberries at him with his tongue stuck out. I was shocked. My son told me that while in a handstand, he wanted to get down, and the boy told him to “stay in it”. Then another boy came over and said he’d scratch my son’s leg if he got down. My son came down, and the boy scratched his leg. Then one of the boys told my son “I know karate”. My son lied and said “my father knows karate and so do I”.

We were on our way to leave, but after hearing this, I returned with him to the group of parents. The boys did not come clean about the whole thing (and I didn’t tell the parents the whole thing), but they tried to apologize. My son kept his back turned the whole time, embarrassing me. I later found out that they had apologized in the gym before parents got involved, compounding my embarrassment.

Fastforward to this week, son is arguing with a different couple of boys about who goes first on the bars. My son was by me getting dressed, and one little boy was sticking his tongue out while the other engaged in verbal exchange with my son! The boy’s name was Charlie, and apparently the coach called him “Chuckles” and my son did as well. I said to my son “This is the second time you’ve had a problem!”, and he said “Yeah, with Hunter! I hate him!” and Charlie said “Hunter’s a great guy!”. My son then said “Yeah, so great that he scratched me!” and Charlie says “It must have been an accident.” At that point, I told my son to cease talking to the boy at all. My son turned, said “Chuckles!”, and then shut up.

So I am concerned about my son’s lack of “team sportsmanship”, although he did not instigate the first problem. I’ve tried to convey to him that these boys may be his teammates, but he is hostile. I have kind of decided that I am not going to go to the coach with this, nor allow my son to quit his 4 weeks. But I am afraid of how all of this will pan out for the fall. Will my son go on to competitive gymnastics? It would rub me wrong if he stuck to recreational because of his difficulty with other kids…

I am terribly confused, and my son is not mature enough to meaningfully discuss any of this… The only thing that he had to say was that he’d like to quit dance and gymnastics and do no physical activities because they “make him sore”. He begged to try soccer this summer, and after one day, he said “it hurts my foot to kick the ball”. No activites? That is not going to happen.

As a way of background, my son was a spindly, skeletal, failure-to-thrive infant, with pulmonary stenosis (now mild), and severe allergies. This child was getting pediasure sent to school with him in Kindergarten. While we expected his weight to eventually become more appropriate for his height, we never expected him to be tall (I’m 5’2", husband is 5’9-10").

A conscious decision was made to keep him away from contact sports due to his size and heart, and we thought that putting him into sports that would use his own weight would be best. Enter gymnastics at age 5.

As the years have gone on, he’s gotten sick less and less, his weight and height are equalizing, and his school PE teacher gives him the highest grade possible, with statements that “appears to have athletic ability”. His cardiologist has told us that his stenosis is so mild that he is cleared for all activities (however, with the caveat that any injury/surgery should be avoided due to his stenosis and penicillin allergy).

This past year, our son did not want to do his homework and was not working to his ability, which I felt that TV and video games did not help. Consequently, we took that away on school nights. Simultaneously, there was a good long period of time where our son would complain about going to his Saturday 1 hour class, which he admitted was due to it interferring with his “TV and video game time” that he got on the weekend. He was told that there wasn’t a chance that he’d be leaving gymnastics to watch TV.

Which leads me to my last thing. My son did pass the 3rd grade, but summer school was recommended. Due to his obstinate behavior about homework, I have made him go, even though he has pointed out to me that he passed. My reason was that I will not go through what I did this past year. If he doesn’t want to go to summer school, then he will make sure next year that it is not recommended… He appears to be doing his work there, but did I do the wrong thing?

We also agreed to let out son try the violin after he begged us all year. A local school had a free rental with 8 paid lessons. He did extremely well the first couple of lessons, was all gung-ho, but then would not willingly practice after that. When he goes to lessons, he seems interested in pleasing the teacher, and does progress quite easily given his lack of effort. She praised him for his sight reading, and he is actually able to finger and bow a song with several notes as of lesson 5. We have told him that he must complete his 8 lessons, but will not make him go after that. But given his apparent ability and interest when he gets to the lesson (as opposed to when asked to practice by us), should we continue it?

And this leads to another issue. My son wanted to play bassoon in school and they get to choose instruments for 4th grade, bassoon not being available. I went out of my way to find a man who would modify a bassoon and got permission from the school for him to play if it can be modified. I am still waiting to hear from this man. The backup suggestion by the school teacher is oboe, and if that is too hard, clarinet.

My problem is that given my son’s attitude about these other things that he’s been given, should I even allow this man to modify a basson and entrust my son (me) with it? He is going out of his way because my son has expressed this interest since age 5. What if this man modifies it, I rent it, and 1 month later my son says “It’s hard! I want to quit!”? I’ve had this policy of making him finish what he starts, but should I just cut to the chase here and skip right to the dang clarinet? I mean, how many darned battles should I have to take on?

Part of my instinct here is to push him for his own good. I know that many of these things will be important for college in 9 years. I don’t believe any good would come of him quitting dancing and/or gymnastics because of problems with other kids. And my son’s school performance and attitude is very aggravating because I suspect that my son is smarter than I am (and I’m smart). I couldn’t remember a dance routine outside of class without the music…! He got 30 model erector set for his 9th birthday and proceeded to put the hardest stuff together, several of them. This is on top of his puzzle-mania where he’s put together a 3-D Notre Dame Cathedral and R2-D2 meant for kids aged 12+.

Ahhhhhh! And I haven’t even gotten into the problems with my soon-to-be-Freshman in college child!

calmom · July 26, 2008, 10:23pm

First of all, for a male dancer, there is not a critical age for starting ballet - certainly not age 9. Many of the top male dancers started much later, often in high school years. It is different for girls.

While I understand that you care deeply about your son, it sounds to me like you are over-involved and doing too much. I say this because you seem to be looking at decisions in terms of long-term impact, rather than short-term rounding out of his activities and having fun, which is far more appropriate for a 9 year old. Pushing your son into a pre-professional ballet program which requires multiple classes each week is far more likely to drive him to quit -plus it sounds like your son has a very busy life, what with dance, gymnastics & music lessons, on top of apparent academic struggles.

I think you should cut back to asking your son to regularly participate in one or two activities out of school, without making such a big deal out of it. You are correct that the 9 year old girls who don’t want to be touched by a boy will be dying to partner with him in just 2 years – that’s part of growing up. Tap dancing is a lot more fun than ballet – I would not want to see any kid going into a pre-professional ballet studio unless the kid were literally begging for the opportunity. It is mostly a discipline and hard work regime – and it is probably harder for younger boys because they don’t yet have the strength required for dance.

Also, I think you are overly involved with your son’s conflicts with other kids. Yes, your son and his teammates were behaving badly… that’s how little boys act. Leave it to the gymnastics coaches to enforce discipline – or speak to your son quietly at home if you disapprove of something he has done. (I would have said something like, “I felt embarrassed because you were acting so rude and childish when you stuck out your tongue at that boy” – and I would also make it a point to comment positively when I saw my kids acting in a way that I approved. – such as “I was so proud today when I saw you being so helpful and considerate!” – until it happens with your kid, you might focus on pointing out positive behavior in others, including commenting positively on things that you see athletes saying and doing on t.v.).

So my overall suggestion is that you make it clear to your son that you want him to participate in at least one physical activity and go to activities at least twice a week (or however often you feel is appropriate) – and then let him choose which he wants to do. Then make it clear to him what your expectations are. But a 9 year old has a lot of exploring and a lot of growing up to do, and at this age you should be focusing on the exposure he is getting to different activities and the health benefits of regular physical exercise – not on what will lead to a professional dance career or a place on a world class gymnastics team. The vast majority of kids who train in dance and gymnastics do not continue with the art or sport on a serious basis beyond high school level – so as kids, they really should be doing it for the fun of it.

The kids who have the inner drive and innate talent to really excel also tend to stand out – being told that your child has potential is not the same thing.

kelsmom · July 26, 2008, 11:02pm

I do have some experience with little boys & dance. My S really wanted to tap dance when he was in kindergarten. He watched it when we took his sister to jazz, and he thought it was great. I enrolled him in a class, and he quit after about 3 of 4 months (he saw the recital costume & said NO WAY, so he bowed out before they choreographed the dance for his class). He thought it was going to be a lot more fun than it was … as in, he figured he’d tap like Savion Glover right away! He did tap spend a lot of time tapping around the basement even after he quit, so the money for the shoes wasn’t exactly wasted. A couple years later, the studio started an all boys jazz class, and my S wanted to join that. He was in 3rd grade at the time. He had a blast! It was a very fun class, geared to young boys. They were excellent in the recital … but believe me, the teacher put up with a lot of stupid boy humor on the road to the recital! He was really quite good. He lasted 2 years, and he really liked it. In 5th grade, though, I think he began to worry about getting ribbed by the other guys at school. He wanted to quit. Yes, he was good … but I wasn’t about to make him do something he didn’t enjoy just because he was good. And I don’t think I needed to push him to stay just to show him that he shouldn’t be swayed by the other guys. If he REALLY wanted to do it & just worried about the guys that would be different … but he was dancing for fun! My point it … if it is FUN and the kid WANTS to do it, that’s great. When it ceases being fun, and when the kid no longer wants to do it, what’s the point? If they want to go back to it in another time & place, that is always a possibility.

My friend’s daughter was a very dedicated gymnast for quite a few years. Eventually, she just didn’t want to do it anymore. Over the years, my friend spent lots of money on camps, lessons, team events, etc. Yet when her daughter decided she really didn’t like being on team anymore, my friend was fine with it. She said that her money was not wasted. Her daughter enjoyed the years she was on team, and that was the point in the first place.

My D was heavily involved in community theatre from 2nd grade until high school. We spent hours at rehearsals, and she really, really liked it. She had several leads, and she was even cast in a college production of Gypsy. But when she wasn’t having fun anymore, she didn’t want to do it anymore. End of community theater.

The point is, kids can be interested in something … they can be good at something … but if they no longer want to do it … that’s really okay. They are kids. They are always changing. I don’t think they should beg for something, get you to pay a ton, then not finish out the commitment. But on the other hand, parents shouldn’t sink a ton of money into something a kid is just beginning to do, anyway … and parents shouldn’t confuse a kid giving in to the parents’ desires to be the same as a kid wanting to do it.

I really think you might be too involved in what is going on with your son. Your observations of his behavior with other kids make me think this. At 9, I don’t think a mom should be confronting kids who wronged her boy … this will NOT endear your kid to other boys. I do not know your son, but I suspect he might probably have some issues getting along with other kids in general. I could be wrong of course, because I am only basing this on what you have told us. Maybe he is being bullied or picked on. Maybe he is acting in such a way that others get upset with him. Maybe he’s just a boy & there is nothing wrong here at all. Is there a teacher or other adult you could discuss your son with who might be honest? From your description, I just sense that there might be some social issues at work here. It may help to enlist the advice of someone who knows him.

It is possible that you might be overprotective without realizing it. After all, you have spent years legitimately worrying about your son’s health. It can be hard to let that go & let him be an increasingly independent boy.

Whatapainthisis · July 26, 2008, 11:07pm

Calmom, I agree that I am too “involved”, which is driving me nuts.

I honestly did not work this hard with my daughter, who basically accepted what she was given and toughed out difficult times. She picked the flute because the school offered it, knew we couldn’t afford private lessons, and made the best of it. She had dance lessons, but had to leave after a number of years due to family illness, but she really was in it for enjoyment anyhow (not competitive). I did have some academic problems with her, but she generally was very angelic to people outside of the home (could be a pita with me though).

All of this effort with my son has been in the interest of trying to be the kind of parent who listens to her child. And for some reason, I feel with this child that I am walking around landmines. He is more challenging in many ways, I feel like what worked for parenting a girl is not necessarily good in parenting a boy. I think what also scares me is that my husband was a “troubled teen”, and I so want to ensure that my son will not go down that path.

You like dance, but don’t like the lack of boys? Fine, we will find you a school with boys. I did realize that he might eventually be encouraged to go professional. But I was simply trying to find a more diverse environmnent at this point, to enable him to feel out his desire to dance. I did not anticipate or expect to encounter it after one year at age 9. While I do feel that he intensely wants to dance with other boys, I do not feel that he has a “passion for dance” that justifies the time and expense being suggested. I have a son who always loved to wear costumes and would pretend to dance around. He was in a very supportive dance studio where he had fun (other than the teasing girls). I am leaning towards just taking him to a different reputable studio where there are some boys and let him take his 1 hour tap and 1 hour ballet a week. I am also thinking of asking him to just stick with his current studio, as I figure that the girls are used to him by now (and he to them). But the stuff this man said nagged at me. I mean, what the heck is “Your son doesn’t know ballet” about? I worry “What do I know? Maybe this man knows what I don’t, and what he needs?” Was I really paying for lessons all year and my son “doesn’t know ballet”?

If I opt not to give this man a crack at my son, I am concerned about how I’d bow out. I now feel as if I wasted his time. Maybe I shouldn’t even have taken my son there. But based on my son’s experience, I really thought that my son would just start at Level 1, which is only 1x a week. I would have been fine with letting him try that, the boys’ class, 1x a week. That’s not what the man wants to do. If the time is just not right, what if my son wants to go there in a couple of years, having decided to get serious, and the man says “too bad”?

As for the gymnastics, I would be fine with my son being not physically ready for team. This was not the best year for this invite, what with my daughter going to college. I’m not sure that I am ready for the commitment required for a team gymnast. I agree about staying out of the gymnastics spats, he’s got to learn to deal with other people. But I am increasingly worried that a coach is going to tell me that my son will not be considered for team due to his inability to work with others, etc., which will be mortifying and I don’t know what I’d say. I feel stuck here too. If I decide that my son (or I) are not ready for team, I fear that he’ll never be invited again.

My son begged me for a long time for the violin.

I am in total agreement that this is the time to “try things”, which is why we used the summer. He is only in competitive gymnastics (4 weeks), soccer (1x a week), and violin (1x a week). He actually is not in dance right now, nor school band. I’m trying to figure out what will happen in the fall. I’d like him to still be in gymnastics, dance, and in the school instrument (be it bassoon, oboe, or clarinet). I don’t know at this point if he will be in competitive or remain in rec gymnastics, what I should do about where he should dance (only that he should continue to explore it), and how I should handle the violin (end or continue).

I actually did not speak to the other children at all, but was spoken to by a child that first time. I only watched the most recent spat, and then told my son to stop speaking to the child. It was clearly disintegrating, with the little boy actually getting physically closer and closer to my son while arguing.

Right now I feel like never giving him anything he asks for ever again. Why bother? Why listen? He always seems to end up “bored” or “sore”!

About my son’s personality – he is overly sensitive in general. Very perfectionistic. When he was younger, I’d let him color my legs with markers while I worked at my desk. He asked me to stay still. I honestly do not remember moving, but he said I moved, packed up his marker box and said “I’m never coloring you again! I told you not to move!” and stormed out of the office. He was about 5, and this is very typical of him. He also refuses any help, yelling “I don’t need anyone’s help!” He will go out of his way to please people and likes attention though.

WashDad · July 26, 2008, 11:13pm

I only made it about two-thirds of the way through the original post, so I apologize if I missed anything, and I’ll leave the dance advice to others who know what they are talking about.

I know a ton about 9-year-old boys. They make faces at each other. They’re mean sometimes, and they jockey for dominance over one another. Today they’re best friends, tomorrow they hit each other, and next week they are best friends again. A 9-year-old boy is a little kid. A 14-year-old boy is like an 11-year-old girl. Your son is a good four to six years away from being a “young adult.” Every story you tell about him and the other boys sounds perfectly normal to me. Don’t expect him to be as socially aware as the girls, and don’t be embarrassed when he acts like a boy.

Does he have time to hang out around the neighborhood with other boys? Does he build forts, play video games, and hunt for frogs? Does he make Lego spaceships and pretend to sword fight? If all he does is dance, I would start worrying (just like I would about a 9-year-old boy that spends all his time playing on three soccer teams).

Overall, relax. He’s really young and has lots of time to specialize when he starts to grow. Good luck.

calmom · July 26, 2008, 11:27pm

The people who run dance studios tend to be quite competitive and back-biting, and the people associated with pre-professional ballet studios also are very judgmental of the quality of studios that are more geared to fun and focused on dance recitals or competitions.

My daughter danced for many years with a for-fun studio, but did outgrow their ballet offerings and wanted better for ballet. At least one local studio would not even allow her to come and audition - they said that they knew she couldn’t be any good knowing where she was coming from. (Ironically, someone from that studio saw her later in high school and tried to convince her to come to them). Other studios made it clear that my d. would have to take class at least 4 days a week at her level, and we didn’t want to make that commitment. My d. did not want to give up tap or acrobatics – so we went with a ballet studio that was well regarded but more flexible. The lady who ran that studio had trained some very famous ballet dancers, and she absolutely despised tap – she was not happy with the fact that my d. kept on taking tap,nor was she happy when my d. opted to leave her studio at age 14 in favor of a high school performing arts program.

But that’s all just personality. My d. was clearly a very capable ballet dancer with excellent technique and a perfect body for ballet, but she also never had the discipline or inner drive to aim for a professional career – nor was she ever the stand-out dancer who would likely become a star performer.

One thing you have to learn in the dance world is to take everything with a grain of salt.

My d’s best friend from high school is now a professional dancer (male). He has danced with several ballet and modern dance companies – but he did not start dancing until his sophomore year of high school. My d. took dance classes since age 4 and spent many hours dancing through the years, but she has given up dance in college.

Whatapainthisis · July 26, 2008, 11:30pm

Yeah, hitting on what Washdad mentioned, I am concerned about the way he deals with childhood spats. My husband and I both told him that he should have let that first gym incident go, especially since the boys apologized. He says “I still hate them”. My husband says that one of these days, he’s going to get punched in the nose!

One one level, he is very sociable. When I take him to the park, he willingly tries to play with other kids. But it’s the way he holds grudges that worries me. And his unwillingness to share, which I realize is common.

There is a lack of outside socialization. One reason that we had enrolled him in activities was the lack of other children to play with. We have no small children in our family, and efforts to engage with other parents in the community have not been great. I was room parent, and invited every kid to my son’s birthday, but nobody responded. One parent came with their child, but it was only after I called and reminded of the invite.

I have befriended one woman whose son is in my son’s class. The boys were friends and one day they “weren’t”. My son told me that the boy was kicking him. But then my son came home to tell me that the boy agreed to not kick him anymore because my son offered to let him play with his new Transformer toy. While I was glad they weren’t fighting, I didn’t really like that my son “bargained for his safety”.

I just don’t know that I know how to teach him to get along with others. When that kid scratched my son, my son did not physically respond back. He did make raspberries and stick his tongue out though. What should my son have done? I don’t even think my husband knows. Back in the day, my husband would have been fighting…

calmom · July 26, 2008, 11:39pm

I think you have unreasonable expectations of your son, and also might take things too far in terms of what you are willing to do for him. It kind of sounds like you are falling into a co-dependency relationship with your son.

So I really think you should take things more at face value, make your parental expectations clear, but don’t worry about long-term impact of the choices he makes and take his whining with a grain of salt and inject some humor into it all. I mean, if he is the type to whine and moan over every muscle ache… accept it, but don’t play into it.

I think the dance two times a week, ballet one day, tap on another sounds great and very appropriate for a 9 year old. Competitive gymnastics is something that involves a level of commitment that has to come from your son. My d. was an incredibly good gymnast - I was always getting “oh wow” type comments from other parents at the gym - but she quit entirely when she was about your son’s age because she didn’t want to compete. So at that point she started going to the open gym hours on weekends to perfect some skills – but she didn’t really want to put in the hours of practice required for the competitive team.

I think it is a mistake for you to emphasize highly competitive endeavors given your son’s personality – he doesn’t sound to me like he has the right emotional makeup for that. (Top competitors rarely are whiners). Rather, focus on the fun and look for the type of dance studio or gym environments where there is more of an emphasis on everyone having fun and getting positive feedback, not so much of an emphasis on perfecting skills or being the best.

Whatapainthisis · July 26, 2008, 11:40pm

Last winter, he was also harassing me for ice skating lessons, which I did not enroll him in. He was told that I had enough of signing him up for things that he then wants to quit. He pouted for awhile over that.

I also missed turning in the paperwork for baseball this year. It was an accident, which resulted in him being waitlisted. He actually chastised me for failing to turn this in, and every time we passed the field with kids playing, he’d say “Yeah, another game that I am missing because you didn’t sign me up!”

Today, I told him that I am ok with him not continuing activities once his commitments are fulfilled, but I do expect him to engage in physical activities. I actually provided him with a list of about 30 different sports. He checked off about 25 of them!! :(

Northstarmom · July 26, 2008, 11:43pm

Your original post was extremely long, and I skimmed it, but didn’t read the whole thing, so forgive me if I missed something essential.

As the mother of boys including one who has always loved dance, I have some empathy for your situation. My younger S loved dance from even before he could walk, and even as a toddler showed some talent for it. When he took tap and modern dance while in elementary school, he and the only other boy in the class were the only kids in the class who seemed happy at practice and at recitals. Unfortunately, S’s older brother teased him so much about his interest in dance (and yes, H and I tried to stop that teasing) that younger S quit dance. He did, however, take up ballroom dancing as a college freshman and this fall will take his third ballroom dance class in college, where he also is an active member of the ballroom dance club.

His not dancing from elementary school until last year doesn’t seem to have hurt him as he has a fistful of ribbons from local competitions. I also have met national and regional champion male ballroom dancers who didn’t start dancing until adulthood.

It sounds like your S’s experiences with the girls negativity toward him in dance class, and his other similar experiences with dance have turned him off from it at least temporarily. That’s very understandable. His experiences probably are normal for boys interested in dance in our culture. Only the very rare boys with true passion for dance would continue dancing as children despite the teasing that their dancing would attract. Your S doesn’t sound like he has that kind of passion, but perhaps he’ll be like my son and take up dancing again when he gets older.

As for your thoughts about the bassoon: younger S also has a lot of natural musical talent, and wanted to play a variety of instruments. Unfortunately, he didn’t believe in practicing those instruments possibly because sight reading came so easily to him. We gave him lessons on several instruments, but stopped the lessons (after the initial commitment was over) after S had to be begged to practice those instruments that he claimed that he loved.

So… as a freshman in college, S signed up to take drums (one of the instruments that we’d stopped lessons with before due to his lack of practice). He did well in the class, but decided not to take the next level. He did, however, use money that he earned through work to buy a drum for a kind of martial art (capoeira) that he’s learning, and he plans to save to buy other capoeira instruments, that he’s also learning as part of that martial art.

"Well… now that he apparently is no longer “the top dog” and so he “hates gymnastics”. " Very normal for kids and for some adults. Fine for you to let him know that he can’t be #1 at everything. At the same time, it would be fine for him to move on to some other activity. He’s very young and doesn’t need to stick with the same activities. Exploring a variety of things is normal.

I think that it will be easier for you to figure out how to handle the kind of situations that you describe if you read about kids’ development. I found such books very helpful when my sons were young. There probably are parents here who can suggest some good recent books on this subject.

Lafalum84 · July 26, 2008, 11:45pm

Parent of a female dancer here. I agree that it’s WAY too soon to wonder if your son’s interest and aptitude for dance means he has a career there. If he enjoys the activity, great, and if he’s good at it, then that’s even better. But I agree with previous posters that the “critical” age for boys dancing is far later than for girls. Especially if your son is doing well at gymnastics, that will give him great physical training - balance, toning, flexibility, and even some “technique” that will carry over quite well to dance if he ends up pursuing it. I assume that the dance school with no boys and the pre-professional school are your only two options? Or are there some other more “fun” schools around that also have boys? In my experience, it takes a certain minimum number of boys to get them to stay at a school or in dance. If there’s only 1 or 2 they tend to give up and leave. If those are truly the only 2 schools that are feasible, ask your son which he would prefer. Maybe the pre-professional will let him observe a class before signing up. He might decide tap with the girls is more fun after all.

I’m also the parent of a college-age son. I also agree that you’re too involved in your son’s day-to-day interactions with other kids. If the other kids were mean to him or they got in a dispute, I suggest you talk with him about it in the car on the way home. “How did that make you feel? Why did you respond that way? How do you think Charlie felt about your response? Can you think of a different way to handle it?” Boys argue, they threaten each other, they are not always nice - they’re kids. He needs to figure out how to handle this on his own - having his mom march over and demand an apology from the other kids is NOT going to endear him to them, and it’s not going to teach him how to handle his own issues. Rather than stepping in to resolve something, talk with him privately about ideas for handling these things. If you really see a pattern that he’s having problems interacting with other people (and the summer school story indicates he might be) then a few sessions with a family therapist might be in order, so that both you and he can figure out what’s going on. But you shouldn’t be able to quote word-for-word what the fight was about, and the fact that he’s even giving you all these details leads me to think he’s counting on you to solve the problem instead of handling it mostly on his own. (My son never told me much unless there was a BIG problem, and he did go thru a period in 5th grade where he felt he was being bullied.)

As for the instrument, I played the bassoon. I cannot imagine a 9 year old attempting it. I did it in high school and was awful at it, it’s the most awkward instrument imaginable. Let him start on clarinet or oboe, and if he sticks with music he can attempt oboe at 12 or so. I have never heard of anyone in elementary school playing the bassoon.

“Right now I feel like never giving him anything he asks for ever again. Why bother? Why listen? He always seems to end up “bored” or “sore”!” It’s possible you’re giving him what he asks for too quickly. If you’re bending over backward to give him exactly what he wants (trying to find a bassoon, for example) when he first asks for it, he may not REALLY want it. Let him ask several times. Ask him WHY he wants this, what appeals to him about it? Maybe give him a goal to work toward to “earn” the lessons or the item. It will help you to see what he really wants before you invest a lot of time and money in something that turned out to be just a whim.

Good luck, you sound like you’re trying to do the best thing for your child, but WashDad is right - RELAX. My son was also sick as a baby (he was a preemie) and I know how easy it is to want to make everything perfect for your son as he gets older. But in the long run he needs to learn to handle relationships with others on his own, and he needs to know that he can’t get everything he wants the minute he decides he wants it.

Whatapainthisis · July 26, 2008, 11:51pm

I agree that it seems like too much involvement, but how do I step back here?

I think that if he is not invited to the team, then so be it, it will be a lesson learned for him on how to show team spirit. But should I have not allowed him to accept the invite to try out for the team this summer? I watched him at the recital, he deserved it. He insisted I sign him up, and after much hesitation, I did. With the caveat that he must complete those 4 weeks. I did tell the coach before signing him up that I am willing to give this summer a shot, but I have concerns about maturity and willingness. Is it possible that this may be the thing that he needs to learn team work and how to get along?

I think another issue is how the school sets up parental/child interaction. With my daughter, her homework was her business. Just as my work was my business. Now, they expect me to sign a daily log of his reading time and his homework assignments. I have found this type of thing to be counterproductive. The more that I paid attention to my son and his homework, the more he dragged it out. But when I said “That’s it, I’m not dealing with your homework”, he still didn’t do it. Then the teacher would nag that I need to sit him down with a timer. Her standards were part of the problem though. I respect accuracy, but she was extremely picky about even the smallest deviations on homework.

Northstarmom · July 27, 2008, 12:05am

Adding that younger S was a preemie, too, so I have empathy for your experience with your S.

Whatapainthisis · July 27, 2008, 12:10am

Oh, just to clarify, I actually didn’t demand any apologies. My son was rude to the child by sticking out his tongue, making raspberries, and wagging his fingers in his ears. I actually was just going to leave, but saw the group of moms. I realized that we had to come back there the next day, so I brought my son over and said “I don’t know what happened, but there was some kind of problem”. At that point, the 2 boys were already coming over, and their moms made them explain and apologize. I actually stood there and watched my son turn his back to the apology, and then asked my son to please turn and face them turing the apology, which he did not do. I then apologized to them for his doing that, and left. Maybe I shouldn’t have done any of that, but I was hoping that he could patch things up before we had to come back the next day. As it is, they ignored him the next day.

About the dance, part of my concern is indeed that he will quit dance due to social pressure rather than his own lack of interest. I think it is a terrible shame that boys feel that they cannot dance due to societal attitudes. I have a boy who went into dance openminded, happy, and excited. Telling everyone about it. He wanted the shirt for his Cinderella performance, and he proudly showed it off when we ran into a couple of boys from his school, and they were very disinterested. And then he stopped telling people at all… It’s bad enough to put up with bias in the community towards boys and dance, but he should not have to put up with it at his dance school. There are many dance schools. The thing is, he does not want to quit, but he’s now set this criteria: “I want to dance, but there needs to be boys”. This is what makes it tough. I’ve made a lot of calls, taken him around. This conservatory man has a lot of boys, but a rigorous program. So then he may drop out due to the intensity. I don’t really care for the level of intensity myself. He can stay where he is with no boys in a non-rigorous program, and probably quit due to the lack of boys. Or I can hope that I find another school that’s not so intense that has some boys. And see how long that honeymoon lasts…

Whatapainthisis · July 27, 2008, 12:20am

Also wanted to mention, the lack of response to the birthday was more due to a July birthday rather than a dislike of my son. Nobody ever responds to the July party. The year that I set it in June before school let out, kids came.

Actually, all else aside, one complaint that I’ve gotten from teachers is that my son is a chatterbox. He actually gets satisfactory marks for interacting with other children in school.

He has ALWAYS had a very stubborn attitude. I am not kidding, when he was a breastfeeding infant, he would not accept a bottle at all. I was reading over old medical records. I had to leave my home for a few days for business, leaving pumped breast milk in bottles. We thought that after a day, he’d give in and take the bottle. He didn’t! He went on a food strike, and I was forced to return on the second day because he’d taken nothing! He was only about 6 months old!

He is smaller than other boys, which may trigger some problems with other boys. But he also doesn’t seem to give a darned if they are bigger, or if there are two of them, he just spouts his mouth off!

Northstarmom · July 27, 2008, 12:28am

“bout the dance, part of my concern is indeed that he will quit dance due to social pressure rather than his own lack of interest.”

That may happen. That’s what happened with my S. He got back into dance in college, when he had developed more ability to follow his own bliss regardless of the negativity of some narrow minded people.

You can talk to your S about not abandoning his interest due to peer pressure, but I don’t suggest that you force him to continue dance if he wants to quit due to negative reactions from peers. The wise words that you tell him, however, may inspire him to return to dance later.

Your posts are very long and detailed. I do suggest again that you start reading some books about child development, which probably will give you information that will help you decide what to do in the kinds of situations you’ve described.

Whatapainthisis · July 27, 2008, 12:30am

Also on some of the posts, I do think that I went through a very stressful period with him (years actually) where I thought he’d die. I still worry that he’ll die. I’ve been told that he’s doing well with his heart, that he just has to get through puberty. If his valve grows well with his growth spurt, he’ll be ok. He also has life-threatening allergies to cashews, pistachios, mango, and penicillin, all of which would require epinephrine. I now have to worry that there is something else, because on a recent trip, we had one day where he was violently puking, and another day where he had a rash like a ring all around his mouth. I think it may have been the apricots, but I’m not sure!

But when I look at him now, doing so well physically in gymnastics and in dance, I don’t see the little boy who I’ve worried would die, who could still die over a stupid exposure or because he just didn’t grow right. His physique has changed, and is actually very good. The thing is, for him, physical activity must be ingrained in him. He doesn’t have the luxury of being a couch potato. His heart depends on him being in the best physical condition that he can be. His choice of sports are limited, and for him to do so well is more than I thought possible. My initial thought was that the gymnastic worked his arms, and the dance will work his legs, and it did. It makes me very angry to imagine him eventually quitting dance because of societal attitudes. If he hates it, wants to swim, play tennis, or run track, that’s ok. But to sit around and watch TV? He’s out of his mind.

Whatapainthisis · July 27, 2008, 12:36am

If the posters here could ignore all but my son’s tendency to want to constantly start and stop things, what is your advice on that?

My policy has been for him to “finish out” whatever the “term” is. For example, he has to finish his 8 violin lessons he committed to. Or his 4 weeks of gymnastics.

There is trying new things. And then there is “bouncing around” as a character flaw.

My brother has this problem. He’d go after something obsessively, and then suddenly drop it. He’d always say that he was “bored” or make some excuse blaming something or something else, but it’s obvious that he’d quit when things were too hard. Or maybe he is a sensation seeker. I don’t know, but I do know that my brother is now an adult with no education and no career, playing video games all day at my father’s house.

calmom · July 27, 2008, 12:43am

Some of your son’s issues are just his personality-- its not even a boy thing. If your son was a girl, I’d label this the “drama queen”… so I guess that makes him a “drama king”. Obviously he over dramatizes everything – he doesn’t merely have a bad day, he hates gymnastics/dance/whatever and never wants to go back, etc.

My advice is simply that you should not play into it. Do sign your son up for a reasonable number of activities, don’t bend over backwards to do anything special for him (no custom-made bassoons) – and don’t make a big deal out of things if he gives up an activity, as long as he has met the basic expectations of finishing what he started.

On another note – one of the best decisions I ever made during my daughter’s years of dancing was letting her quit ballet the first year she started. She absolutely loved her first class, hated the 2nd, hated the teacher, couldn’t stand it any more. At her studio we paid by the month, so I let her drop the class. A year later she went back into ballet with the same teacher, was placed in the same level as she would have been if she had taken class the previous year… and she and that teacher ended up having a great relationship that lasted for years. So sometimes its all about backing off and not treating every decision as if life-altering.

I agree with you that it is a terrible shame that our culture does not encourage boys to dance. I hope that the popularity of programs like So You Think You Can Dance well help offset those attitudes somewhat. But whether we like it or not, that is the culture. It sounds like your son actually is interested in a lot of things and may end up varying his activities from year to year – which is fine for a kid his age.

Northstarmom · July 27, 2008, 12:44am

My advice is that your policy is a good one.
I also think that you could benefit from some counseling with a therapist experienced with working with parents with concerns about their young kids. My belief is that due to your brother’s difficulties and your S’s health issues, you’re overly concerned about your S’s normal behavior. I fear that if you aren’t able to pull back from this overconcern, your behavior may lead to your S’s following your brother’s footsteps.

And do read some books about child development and parenting. Your detailed posts and concerns are not likely to result in the kind of advice and support that you feel that you need. You need to seek out information about child development so you can figure out how best to resolve some of these relatively minor concerns for yourself.

Grating parenting issues with 9 year-old, will listen to any advice

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