I’ve lost a lot of respect for Richard Dawkins.
Did you see him when Bill Nye suggested that half of all scientists should be women?
It would be the height of hypocrisy to murder Muslims because one hated them following a “violent” religion.
And that does not seem to be the case, regarding the Chapel Hill murders.^^^^^^
When we first moved into our present house, our age 50ish neighbors two doors down told us they did not like the neighbor in between us, because those neighbors parked their Suburban in front of the first neighbors’ house EVERY DAY. They were literally angry about it. They were retired and home a lot, so they probably didn’t have enough other things to be stressed about.
The murderer might be like those neighbors of mine, but in an extremist way.
Some people thrive on being angry. It seems to give them energy.
Anger seems to mask fear. When someone feels that they don’t have control about the big things in their life, they seem to try and compensate by going nutso over what would be small things to others.
I definitely felt uncomfortable being a non church goer, living in the south. It wasn’t that people would say rude things, it’s just that constant question of, “Oh, what church do you go to?” And people continually talking about their church activities, and sometimes inviting you to go with them. The constant reference to so and so belonging to their church, in an affectionate way, even if that person was someone they barely knew, they must be a great person just because they went to the same church. We went to several different churches when we first moved to the south, didn’t like any of them, but at least I had an answer to the question, saying that sometimes we went to one of them.
One of my neighbors (a church goer, but not a judgmental one), said she would hide her beer under the other groceries in the cart, just in case someone from her church saw her in the grocery store. To which I responded that the neighbors must really think we were pigs, because our recycling bin was filled with beer and wine bottles, especially after family get togethers, and we were just trying to keep them in the bin and not rolling down the street. She said that because of our occupation, we were expected to be pigs, so it was just fine. I think she was trying to be nice.
@Mynaaa @marvin100 thank you, I really appreciate it. I’m not sharing that story to gain sympathy - I really just want people to understand why this is a big deal to me.
@busdriver11 I’m not saying that I’m living in fear because of this attack, nor am I in any way claiming that there isn’t Muslim on Muslim violence. I was relaying an anecdote to show that my dad was shaken by these events. I don’t have to be terrified to be saddened by the deaths of three young people - and I think you’re editorializing what I said a bit. Also, you say “If these young people were even murdered because someone had a grudge against Muslims, that is pretty rare–in this country.” Sorry, I’m really not trying to be offensive here, but unless you’re Muslim I don’t think you can comment on the discrimination that Muslims face. If you’re specifically referring to murders because of someone having a grudge against Muslims, that number probably isn’t statistically high. But I wasn’t talking about murders, necessarily. I was pointing to the fact that people are worried about simple situations -based on previously held prejudice - escalating.
@busdriver11 In regards to the following comment: “Or perhaps it would be better for all Muslim women to hide in their houses, forget not looking at people while they drive, but don’t drive at all? It’s possible that one guy pulled the trigger particularly because these young people were identifiable as Muslims, therefore all Muslims must now live in fear because it could have been them?”
Again, totally editorializing what I said. “Hiding in our houses”? Really? Lol. I never said Muslims are living in fear of being murdered, and are hiding inside their houses. That was a somewhat immature dramatization. I don’t live in fear, but I do worry about discrimination, and I think that’s pretty reasonable thing to worry about.
And again, as a (likely white) atheist, I don’t think that you can accurately comment on what it means to be a Muslim in America, and what kind of discrimination Muslims in America face. Someone who looks at you has no idea that you’re atheist. It takes just one glance for someone to know that I’m Muslim and treat me differently because of it.
In reply to whoever said that if they were a Muslim female they’d rather not wear the hijab, so as to blend in - I’m not sure if that was you or someone else - okay, that’s good for you. But as a person living in America, I shouldn’t feel pressure to blend in. I shouldn’t have to worry that what I’m wearing on my head is influencing how people treat me.
This isn’t just a Muslim issue - it’s a Sikh issue, a Jewish issue, any kind of immigrant’s issue. Some people are treated differently, even though this is America, even though we’re all the same. That’s a reality.
^^
If you decide to quote someone, you might also read the post with closer attention. Here is Busdriver’s original post
I believe that the salient and relevant part of the statement is none other than the first words. Those words “If I was a Muslim woman in the US, and felt threatened by my visibility” were a direct sequitur to a post sharing the concern of your father about interacting with others.
When the issue becomes one of feeling threatened by your clothing choices, it appears that the remedy is quite simple. It is a very logical statement! We all understand the reluctance to be forced to “blend in” and adopt the local customs. It is a matter of priorities.
But @xiggi, it’s not that simple. It’s not just a clothing choice; it’s an outward representation of my faith.
Further, I never said that I felt threatened by my visibility. I don’t personally worry about being attacked. My dad, on the other hand, may be worried - but that’s because he’s my dad and all he does is worry about my life anyway 
My point is that because the poster I quoted isn’t Muslim, he or she doesn’t understand what it means to wear hijab. I might say, “If I were a Jewish man, I wouldn’t wear the yarmulke.” But my opinion there isn’t really relevant. I’m not a Jewish man, and I don’t understand what the religious/cultural significance of the yarmulke is. It’s easy for me to say that I wouldn’t wear it, because I have no connection to it.
“We all understand the reluctance to be forced to “blend in” and adopt the local customs. It’s a matter of priorities.”
So you’re saying I need to decide whether to prioritize God or my “local customs” (referring to American customs)? What does that even mean? Do I need to choose between my faith and say, watching the Superbowl (most quintessentially American thing I could think of, haha)?
But just to reiterate, because it seems as though this has become a point of confusion: I don’t feel threatened. I don’t live in fear. I do, however, feel discriminated against at times. I don’t think that’s fair. And I don’t think that anyone who isn’t Muslim really understands that discrimination. (I know that many other groups are discriminated against - but the stigma against Muslims in post 9/11 America isn’t the same.)
A hijab shouldn’t be blamed for violence and hatred. Let’s not engage in victim (or potential victim-) blaming here.
What a tragedy.
I remember this recent outpouring of support for Muslims in Australia after a woman saw a young woman sadly remove her headcover on the train:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/16/us-australia-security-solidarity-idUSKBN0JU01120141216
It was not my impression that any “victim-blaming” is going on. I think the point was that if one lives in fear while wearing the hijab, then perhaps one should not wear it, to lessen the fear. Like locking your doors at night. It is a crime for someone to trespass on your property whether you lock your doors or not, but if you live in fear that you will be robbed, then by all means lock your doors! That advice is not victim-blaming. It is problem-solving.
I know. But it’s easy for us to say not to wear something that is very important to many Muslim women. It’s not trivial to them.
Try some paradigmatic substitutions:
- Hey there, attractive woman! If you live in fear of being harassed and raped by men, make yourself less attractive!
- Hey, African-Americans! If you live in fear of being disproportionately targeted by police, don't drive a car!
- Hey, Asian guy! If you live in fear of being pigeon-holed as an emasculated nerd, don't get good grades!
I’m pretty sure @marshmallowpop has considered giving up her hijab and decided it’s too important to her. It’s a little condescending for those of us not in her position to think we can “solve” her problem (a problem that is an actual social ill–hate crimes do exist; anti-Muslim sentiments are real).
The privileged members of society can do better than placing responsibility for social ills on the shoulders of the less privileged, is all I’m saying.
I don’t think anyone said they were living in fear because of this, but this is a difficult time for the Muslim community, and we need to be respectful of that.
People aren’t really living in fear because they’re wearing the hijab, either. You take the hijab off, and it’s not like the risk of being discriminated against goes down. What if you want to buy halal meat at a grocery? Or go to the mosque? What if you want to fast on Ramadan? All of those are public things make it clear what your cultural background is. It is impossible to truly “hide” your cultural identity from others (trust me, I’ve tried)–and even if it was, no one should be forced to because of a fear of discrimination.
This is all obfuscating this particular incident though.
It does not seem to me that the victims were targeted because they were Muslim.
They could have been anyone.
Well, anyone religious–we know the killer was not just an atheist but an anti-theist with anger and contempt for those who practice religion.
Perhaps you can refer them to Matthew 6:6, indicating that religion should be a private matter:
Well, there are three possibilities:
- They were targeted because they were of a specific religion (Muslim), possibly in combination with other motives.
- They were targeted because they were religious, possibly in combination with other motives.
- They were targeted only for other motives that have nothing to do with religion.