Yes, only 15% of atheists claim to also be anti theists. It is on the extreme end of the continuum.
I think most atheists would be offended to have anti theists categorized with them.
Again, it’s the extremists of religions and beliefs that are causing harm and committing terrorism in our world, and none of them are excluded.
This guy went out of his way to rail against any religion… he couldn’t just live in a world where he didn’t believe in some higher power, he had to actively protest against it.
They may not have been " targeted" for any other reason than what has to do with parking.
people are very possessive of " their" spaces, and if someone parks in a way that takes up more than one space, especially if it means they have to leave their vehicle at a greater distance from their residence than they are comfortable with, then watch out.
I wonder if it was really about walking a few yards or blocks more, but about security of the vehicle and I share that.
I’ve had my car broken into while it was * in my driveway*, I would not leave it somewhere I could not see it, overnight.
@Marshmallowpop, what you said did lead me to believe that you were terrified. You said,“Frankly, in all of them, I see myself. And that’s a scary thing. Every Muslim person I know is hugging their family members a little closer and whispering to themselves “that could have been me””
And you talked about the extreme precautions that your father wants you to take. Now maybe you were being a bit overdramatic in your post, or just saying what you felt at the minute. But I hate the thought of women living in fear because of something that happens very rarely in this country. I can’t stand the possibility of women listening to their fathers who tell them they must live like second class citizens to be safe, and I’m glad that you aren’t one of them.
Now you should be free to dress as you choose, and you should be able to do so without any discrimination. Unfortunately, after 9/11 in particular, and the constant flow from the news about people killing in the name of Allah, in vicious brutal ways—Muslims have suffered from discrimination in many places. This is very sad to me, as Muslims are generally the victims of this oppression, particularly the women. I have so much sympathy for what Muslim women have to endure, discrimination and suspicion here, and far worse in most countries in the Middle East.
But as someone with the right to speak freely, I CAN express my opinion. I don’t have to be a Muslim woman to express my opinion of what they might do to enhance their safety. And if it is that you feel unsafe here, dressing in a way that identifies you as a Muslim, then do you not have the choice to dress otherwise? Your faith does not require you to wear a hijab, right? So it’s really not a choice between your religion or local customs. If you don’t feel unsafe, then feel free to dress how you like…you have that right. But if you do, you know what to do to blend in. It’s really a matter of problem solving, and it is your choice.
Hey there, attractive woman! If you live in fear of being harassed and raped by men, make yourself less attractive!"
Actually, when I was young, thin and buxom, I dressed in loose fitting clothing and didn’t wear makeup. I worked with 98% men, didn’t want to be treated in a certain way, and I wasn’t stupid. I took personal responsibility and did what I needed to do to fit in (as much as was possible).
“I’m pretty sure @marshmallowpop has considered giving up her hijab and decided it’s too important to her. It’s a little condescending for those of us not in her position to think we can “solve” her problem (a problem that is an actual social ill–hate crimes do exist; anti-Muslim sentiments are real).”
I don’t think it’s condescending at all to say that if you feel threatened by how you dress, dress differently. If you don’t feel threatened, then don’t change. But you cannot expect that the world will just magically change around you. You have to look at the world realistically and make your choices.
“The privileged members of society can do better than placing responsibility for social ills on the shoulders of the less privileged, is all I’m saying.”
Now THAT is condescending. Are you saying Muslim women are the social ills in our country?
Discrimination against anyone is a social ill. In a perfect world that I imagine, nobody would be discriminated against, ever. People would be looked upon as individuals, and not as a part of some group. It’s better here than most places, but we still have a long ways to go. However, I don’t like to automatically classify any particular group as victims.
I can’t say anything with 100% certainty, but from the information I’ve seen so far, this seems to be a crime that was primarily motivated by the murderer’s anger over a parking spot which may have also been fueled by anti-religion sentiments. I don’t think that the victims’ faith was the main reason for the killings.
To many people, religion isn’t an arbitrary set of rules or requirements. Someone believing that they aren’t required to wear the hijab doesn’t mean that they don’t have motivation for wearing it. Some wear it for modesty, and modesty does have its place in Islam. I once met a conservative Christian girl who wore a headscarf, because it felt right to her conscience, and it gave her a good feeling. Required or not, suggesting that one should stop wearing the headscarf, because one feels threatened is still like saying, “don’t practice your faith (or what you believe to be right), if you feel threatened because of it.” Besides sounding wrong, it can also come off as suggesting that those who are discriminated against should be the ones to change, rather then eradicating the discrimination. I don’t think you intended it that way, and I didn’t read it that way, but I can see how some might.
Now personal safety and health also has a very important place in Islam, so I honestly don’t think that your suggestion is too out there. If someone feels truly threatened, then maybe they’ll feel that they should prioritize safety, according to their faith. But, this suggestion being thrown out ther casually by someone who is not Muslim makes one think that they don’t really understand the significance that some attach to hijab, and hence, shouldn’t be making such suggestions. Using a previously used example, I wouldn’t be able to suggest that someone Jewish shouldn’t wear a yarmulke if they feel threatened while wearing it. I don’t feel like it’s my place when I don’t understand the importance it might hold and am not familiar with (let alone, a part of) the religion/culture in question.
Not really. Take away many parts of the Middle East and the West, and it’s not as much of an issue. Of course, you still have extremists and discrimination in other parts of the world, but it’s not as common.
It’s really a cocktail. Sometimes it’s believed to be required, and simply a normal part of upbringing (generally more common in Arab families). Sometimes it’s actively discouraged.
One of my friends who wears hijab was pressured into it. Her immediate family didn’t care, but the fact that she wasn’t being raised to wear hijab seemed to shock her extended family. So she did end up wearing it. Not that it was a horribly big deal the way it might sound to some, and she doesn’t harbor any bitter feelings. Practically every woman in her family wore a headscarf as normal clothing, so wearing a headscarf wasn’t this huge “OMG I’m covering my hair” thing. All the same, I still think pressuring her was very wrong.
When my other friend’s mom started wearing hijab, her extended family did not approve (again, immediate family was totally fine with it). They thought that it was extreme, but in the end, they were kind of like, “well, she’s an adult and makes her own choices” even though they didn’t approve. But when my friend decided to put on the hijab when she was 17, extended family was very concerned that she was being influenced by extremists and fundamentalists. They were afraid that she was going to become a radical in her naive, young age.
I was lucky. My family just let me get on with my hijab. A few people have said that it was great that I decided to chose to wear it, most people didn’t comment at all, and everyone just treated me just as they have before. Which tends to be how most stories I hear about the hijab tend to go.
The only thing that’s unfortunate is how most white people (excluding Arab white) assume that my parents had something to do with my hijab.
“That’s your mom?”
“Yeah.”
“She doesn’t wear a headscarf,” says every white person to meet my mom ever, in surprised tone.
Oh really, I didn’t notice
Well, if I were an atheist in your position, I’d just go to the church with them every week and wear a cross necklace so that people didn’t know I was atheist.
Do you see how frustrating of a suggestion that might be to someone?
I just wanted to thank everyone for a great discussion that I have personally found quite interesting. And of course I would be remiss if I didn’t also acknowledge that people have cooperated by staying away from the gun control aspect. I think that has really allowed this particular discussion to flourish. JMHO. But we (mods) usually have to intervene in a “negative” fashion, and I thought it made sense to recognize the other side of the coin in what is obviously a difficult topic. This thread really is an example of one of the aspects I like best about the CC community.
Wearing the Hijab isn’t a religious choice, it’s a social choice. As in, religiously you are required to wear it, but if you don’t, no one is going to force you, it’s between you and God, since not wearing it is considered sinful. Personally, I live in the south and wear hijab. I have never been in a life threatening situation, but speaking for my self, I value the purpose and meaning behind the hijab more than I care for people’s rude actions or words when they see me wearing it. Ultimately, I am being true to what I believe in.Also, there is a equal possibility that you will die each day. You are going to die one day, as everyone will, and say this incident did not occur, the three young Muslims may have been put in a different life threatening situation that took their lives that had nothing to do with their religion. So letting go of something precious to you will not change the fact that death is inalienable and can happen at any time, regardless of faith.
(also, with my knowledge of Islam, it is not sinful to remove your hijab if you feel your life and safety is threatened in any way, since that is the only choice you have, and if death can be avoided, it should.)
IMHO, this case has become a convenient means of over-reaction which allows American society to do a bit of phony cleansing about how much it cares. Convenient because this wouldn’t be the case if the shooter was a devout Christian. Convenient because no one would care about this at all if the shooter was a Muslim. That the shooter is a self-declared “atheist” allows religious Americans to spout off about how atheism leads to a lack of values, how it corrupts and, see, this one atheist killed people (so let’s forget the vast multitudes killed by religious people because one case more than balances that out).
While individuals have whatever reactions they have, for Muslim Americans this objectively changes nothing.
Having to sit through a church service or wear a cross would not be a problem for atheists, but it might be an inconvenience. Not going to church and not wearing a cross doesn’t signify that one is an atheist though, anyway. (And btw, my impression is that most hard-core church goers don’t really care what you believe, as long as you actually go to church. I could be wrong about that, though.)
Feeling socially chastised for not attending church is obviously not the same as feeling fear for your life if you wear the hijab, which is what the original subject post was about. (I.e., referring to the murders as “that could have been us.”) The suggestion that one not wear the hijab was intended to help alleviate her fear of threats to her life.
I cannot tell if a person is Muslim or not by looking at them, unless they wear the traditional clothing. That is true for all religions.
@soosoo948 “Wearing the Hijab isn’t a religious choice, it’s a social choice. As in, religiously you are required to wear it, but if you don’t, no one is going to force you, it’s between you and God, since not wearing it is considered sinful.”
I will have to object to you on that statement.Hijab is most definitely not a religious requirement. Women are socially pressured to wear it due to the heavy propaganda of religious men and clerics who want to impose the headscarf on women for personal reasons. The hijab is a pre-islamic tradition that women carried out. It is not Islamic. No religious text or the Q’uran directly demands that women cover their hair.
Of course that is a matter of personal opinion, but that topic has been open to debate for several years and has many opinions. I live in Saudi Arabia and still chose not to wear it, but my mother does. And I’m quite used to my mother receiving negative comments about how she should make me wear it. Some people simply don’t understand what a choice is.
I would only feel bad about not going to church in a community where most people do go to church if I was overly concerned with others thought about me.
If someone doesn’t like me or doesn’t approve of me because I don’t go to church, then I don’t think I have missed out on anything of value, quite frankly.
Not to mention that attending church or not does not actually speak to whether one actually identifies with a particular religion.
I don’t think that the murderer being Christian would make a difference, because I haven’t seen this story used to bash atheism. I’ve seen it to bring up discrimination against Muslims in the US (although personally I don’t think this was a hate crime), and that would have been the case as long as the shooter wasn’t Muslim.
If the shooter was Muslim, with the same victims, it probably would have been seen as another crazy murder case. If the shooter was Muslim, and the victims were not, people would care very much. They would wonder if he was a radical. Especially if his Facebook page had expressed dislike/hatred to other beliefs, the same way the murderer’s FB has shown that he is an anti-theist.
I don’t know about hijab being required, but I have to disagree with some of your statements… Modesty is a part of Islam, and some wear headscarves for modesty. Yes, many women have worn it before the Quran was revealed. And many women of various faiths wore it afterwards. Non-Muslims doing something doesn’t make something not Islamic. What makes something not Islamic is when it is condemned by Islam. And modesty isn’t condemned, it’s commended.
So I heard a news story that this guy basically fashioned himself as a watchman of sorts, constantly calling the police if music was too loud etc. How is it that he come to neighbors doors with a gun, and he was not dealt with at that time?
@stressedouttt In islam, modesty is an obligation on both men and women. It is not exclusive to women. And women can be modest without wearing hijab.
“Yes, many women have worn it before the Quran was revealed. And many women of various faiths wore it afterwards. Non-Muslims doing something doesn’t make something not Islamic. What makes something not Islamic is when it is condemned by Islam. And modesty isn’t condemned, it’s commended.”
Hijab would be Islamic if it was exclusive to Islam, but its not.
@ucbalumnus Exactly. But my point is that it is not an obligation for muslim women to wear hijab like they think they should. As I said, it’s all a propaganda by clerics to control women, in the name of religion.
Which tends to be how most stories I hear about the hijab tend to go.