“Of course that is a matter of personal opinion, but that topic has been open to debate for several years and has many opinions. I live in Saudi Arabia and still chose not to wear it, but my mother does. And I’m quite used to my mother receiving negative comments about how she should make me wear it. Some people simply don’t understand what a choice is.”
That must be difficult for you. Does your mother pressure you to wear it, or is she content with the fact that you don’t?
I never said that modesty was exclusive to women. And I’m not saying that women who don’t wear the hijab are immodestly dressed. What I’m saying is that some women wear hijab for modesty (because being more modest in dress and covering more can be one way that someone might choose to be more modest), and the concept of modesty is Islamic. So someone may very well wear the hijab, because they believe it is Islamic.
There are non-Muslims who practice gentleness, abstinence, modesty, who get married, etc. That does not make those things not Islamic. E.g. I believe that it is Islamic to give charity, regardless of whether those who aren’t Muslim do it or don’t.
This isn’t completely true. There are some people who genuinely believe that the hijab is required, and the hijab isn’t controlling or oppressive in and of itself. (Not saying that I think that it’s required- I’m not really sure).
I’m not going to comment any further about this on this thread. I don’t want it to go off topic.
EDIT: I’d just like to take back my previous statement, “What makes something not Islamic is when it is condemned by Islam.”
"I would only feel bad about not going to church in a community where most people do go to church if I was overly concerned with others thought about me.
If someone doesn’t like me or doesn’t approve of me because I don’t go to church, then I don’t think I have missed out on anything of value, quite frankly."
I wouldn’t feel bad about not going to church just because others were. I felt irritated that people were often asking, and felt more comfortable giving them a vague answer than rubbing it in their faces. However, the major reason for going to different churches trying to see if anything stuck, was to allow our children the option to choose what to believe. Being brought up as an atheist, I never had that choice. But our kids had exposure to religion, no negative talk about it, and they have made their own minds up.
Many Orthodox Jewish women wear wigs. It’s a form of head covering. These aren’t major issues. Compare that to a Muslim woman in Florida who tried - and was denied - to get a driver’s license wearing a form of niqab that covered everything except a slit for her eyes. No one cares about head scarves.
The killer in this case was, as is typical, nasty to a lot of people, most of them I would assume given the location being Christian. [url=<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/us/chapel-hill-neighbors-say-they-felt-threatened-by-man-held-in-killings.html?partner=rss&emc=rss%5DHere’s%5B/url”>http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/us/chapel-hill-neighbors-say-they-felt-threatened-by-man-held-in-killings.html?partner=rss&emc=rss]Here’s[/url] an NYT story.
@busdriver11 I am fortunate enough to have an open minded mother. She wore it by choice and agrees with me that hijab should be a choice.
@stressedouttt Of course there are women who believe the hijab isn’t oppressive. In fact some women think hijab is a way that islam honors them (assuming it is a religious obligation). But you are right, let’s not go off topic.
Well I appreciate the going off topic. I learned more about something I was curious about, and that I suspect many others are also.
The tough thing about whether to go to church or not is that as the parent of young children, your decision affects your kids who are too young to go by themselves or not go if they don’t want to. Like busdriver, I wanted my kids to make up their own minds about religion, so while I do not go to church, I always encouraged them to go with their friends when they were invited. One of my kids went to a Christian camp with her friend and became totally turned off when a counsellor pulled her aside and demanded to know (in a nice way) whether she accepted Jesus Christ as her savior. She never wanted to go back after that. To us, one’s religion is a personal thing and is no one else’s business. I would never ask a person what church they go to, as it is not relevant to anything in my own life.
^^ If only everyone starting thinking religion is a personal belief and that its no one’s business, the world would definitely be a better place.
“One of my kids went to a Christian camp with her friend and became totally turned off when a counsellor pulled her aside and demanded to know (in a nice way) whether she accepted Jesus Christ as her savior”
Yep, had that conversation many times. It is very uncomfortable, but I finally realized that people weren’t trying to be rude, that they thought it was their obligation to try to save others. There are the types who are confrontational, that you want to walk away from immediately, and the people who are very kind and truly think they can make a difference. I have a harder time steering the conversation away from that topic with the nicer folk.
Well, if that conversation occurred at a Christian camp, I’m not surprised. At a lot of those camps, one of the purposes is to bring people into the fold. That would bother me far less than if it occurred in a secular setting. At least it was done “in a nice way.” I kind of expect those kinds of interactions when I go into a church or similar environment. But everyone has different comfort levels.
It was important to DH that our girls at least be introduced to our religion, so we did attend church until both girls went through their confirmation class. The decision whether or not to join the church was entirely theirs. Once D2 was in high school, I began attending less and less. Though I still identify with my religion, I don’t feel like attending a church service is the only way to honor that within myself.
Back OT: It seems perfectly plausible that this guy went after them because they were Muslim, but I don’t feel I have the information at this time to state that with full confidence. He seems pretty angry in general.
Well, I don’t know that I would expect anything * else* at a camp that described itself as Christian.
In my experience, those are run by evangelical denominations.
If you were attending a camp run by Deadheads, you should expect to wear tie dye!
Back to the original topic"
To me whether its a hate crime or a shooting over a parking space makes no difference. The penalty should be the same: the death penalty or life in prison without possibility of parole (whatever is the law in NC).
I don’t understand what an FBI investigation of whether the crime was a hate crime or not adds to the ultimate outcome. I’d see it only if the perp was a member of some group that might be motivated to commit other similar crimes, ie terrorist group. Then such an investigtation might lead to stopping other planned crimes.
To clarify, it wasn’t surprising at all that the subject discussed at a Christian camp was the Christian religion. It was the demand for an answer to that question that turned my D off. This was an adult authority figure putting a child on the spot and making her give an answer (and of course to D it was obvious there was only one right answer expected). D said she cried and said “I don’t know.”
I used to know two girls who would always pull that stunt at slumber parties. At some point, someone would be sobbing. Eventually one of the moms would come in and put a stop to it.
Those of us who had witnessed this many times would just ignore them and carry on with our business.
“The minute our daughter moved in after her honeymoon, she just got married Dec. 27, the minute she moved in and he saw her wearing the hijab and her friends came to visit and her sister went to visit, he began to pick up arguments over everything,” Abu-Salha said. “My daughter Yosur, the newlywed, told us two or three weeks ago that she felt that neighbor hated them for how they looked and who they were.”
My understanding is that if the murders are determined to be motivated by hate for a protected class (i.e., a “hate crime”), then a separate and additional charge for “hate” will be brought against the killer, that carries additional and possibly harsher penalties than a regular murder.
Wouldn’t the penalty for a triple homicide be about as high as they go, ie. death or life in prison? Hence, I don’t understand the need to pile on a hate crime on top of triple murder, except for the media and political gloss.
I don’t think prosecutors scrimp on charges or think that at some point they have enough so don’t bother with others. I assume that having more charges may increase the likelihood that the defendant will agree to plea bargain, and then the time and expense of a trial can be avoided.
“My understanding is that if the murders are determined to be motivated by hate for a protected class (i.e., a “hate crime”), then a separate and additional charge for “hate” will be brought against the killer, that carries additional and possibly harsher penalties than a regular murder.”
No. Expert lawyers in North Carolina have been interviewed on this matter and all have said that an indictment and conviction for murder in this case mandates capital punishment. In other words, whether or not a hate crime is added to the existing indictment will not invoke a greater punishment.
The federal hate crime laws let the federal government prosecute when local prosecutors decide to look away. That won’t be the case here, but in jurisdictions where the local government won’t protect minorities, gays, whoever, the hate crime laws give the feds a chance to step in.