<p>Just a note that almost no one posts about their daughter behaving this way, but quite a few of us have posted about similar behavior in boys. (How did males ever run the world?)</p>
<p>^ Mostly by getting women to do unpaid or low paid labor for them. :-)</p>
<p>But I don’t think it’s just boys that do this. Sure, girls mature faster, and maybe people post more about their sons on here for whatever reason, but I know plenty of young women from affluent homes who have left school or floundered after college. Either they werent’ sure of what they wanted or they had parents willing to take care of them.</p>
<p>Funny, I just ordered that book because a friend also read it and loved it, said its her new bible! I look forward to receiving it. I agree tough love or at the very least a new style of parenting is indeed in order. I am getting tougher by the minute with the multiple sources of support I am seeking out for myself…thank you to everyone taking the time to help me here, it is tremendously helpful and comforting.
I actually wrote the cousin a very nice, politely firm email about how we feel about him continuing to work there, and that while we are grateful for the opportunity, we want him treated like any other employee and asked that if he skips one more day that he is not supposed to work, to please fire him on the spot. My husband is fully on board with this.
I keep saying to myself that Will needs a “shock to his system”, things HAVE been very cushy here with little consequence. In many instances, I am awnsering many of my own questions but it is comforting to hear others voice the same opinions.</p>
<p>When you decide to move him out (which I suggest) - try to avoid lawyers. The easiest way is to get him to sign a short-term lease somewhere for 6 months and pay the first/last month deposit (and kiss that money goodbye) and then him flounder on his own. Change the locks on your own house if needed, for certain empty his room and put a lock on it so he can’t creep back in.</p>
<p>Alternatively, you and hubby start going to Tough Love meetings in your town. I believe one thing advocated there is taking doors off the hinges so the drug-user can not have privacy… remove ALL his possessions except 1 change of clothing and a raw/plain mattress on the floor of his room. Make life so austere that he shapes up or moves out.</p>
<p>Trust me - he may still be at your house when he is 30, 35 or older. Decide if you want to kick him out at 20 or at 30 or at 40 - because some kids stay FOREVER.</p>
<p>It sounds like he has already threatened to not leave w/o a legal fight… if he is posing that kind of language about it to you, his parents, that would be my personal last straw.</p>
<p>Physically kick him out, cut off any allowances (so that he is forced to work for money), offer to pay for counseling (directly to the counselor office) if he wants it.</p>
<p>All this other stuff is your son manipulating the system. You lost me at “the house keeper tries to wake him”. Ridiculous. Go to “Tough Love” and learn how to set boundaries. What worked for your other kids is being taken advantage by this middle child. The soft namby-pamby approach obviously doesn’t work… why do you think continuing this way would yield results? Sounds like you have just started exploring this “tough love” route-- my warning is that you as parent will probably have to ratchet it up quite a bit before you see results AND your kids might deliberately flounder WORSE once out of the house just to attempt manipulating you into softening your stance.</p>
<p>A couple of thoughts</p>
<p>1) Read up on ADD and Adult ADD. Sometimes HOW a brain works makes a difference in the choices one makes. </p>
<p>2) Quit waking him up “nicely”. That is an enabling behavior. If you find you can’t quit that monitoring, buy him an extra loud/vibrating alarm and buy yourself a set of noise canceling earphones (all available on Amazon) – let him know that you will be using extreme loud noises, unrelentingly, every day. Set the alarm down in different places every a.m. He has to get up to find it. Basically you are re-training him. Let him know that if he is horizontal after 7:00 a.m., his life will be a complete misery. </p>
<p>3) Read some dog training books. Seriously. They talk about dividing wanted behavior into teeny steps. Lots of words of praise for every step in the right direction. Immediate, sharp consequences for a step down the wrong path. So, you can’t get him to work on time – but you CAN make his life a misery everyday from 7 a.m until he is up and dressed. And you can give out abundant words of praise every time he is up and moving. </p>
<p>It sounds really dumb to have to train a 20 year old to get out of bed – but if that is a skill set he doesn’t have, then dig in and make it happen. Tell him you are the New Cesar Milan of Job Skills Training. You are going to focus on the behavior of getting up in the morning until he has conquered that and then you are going to conquer the next needed behavior until he has a complete set of Proper Job Skills and Attitudes. </p>
<p>So, what happens next? He tests to see if you are serious. Yep. You are. Clear the calendar and be the a.m. Drill Sergeant for six weeks. Tell him that’s how long it takes to undertake a new behavior. Tell him that you are ready to rinse and repeat for further units of six weeks.</p>
<p>He may hate you for this, but he WILL RESPECT you. And that’s what you’ve been lacking. Respect. </p>
<p>So, in six weeks, you’ll be exhausted and he’ll have the message that you are not kidding on the getting up at 7 a.m. </p>
<p>Also, get a wall locking unit for the car keys. Use it. He is only allowed to have keys to the car if he comes and asks for keys. Tell him it is because of his past choices. Tell him the lock box stays in place until you are confident about his choices. </p>
<p>Somewhere in all this he may decide that college or life in an apartment is better than living with Drill Mother. Fine. </p>
<p>Here’s the bottom line: the payoff for making bad choices (sleeping in, smoking pot) is worth the minimal amount of guff he is getting (lectures, more lectures, loss of some toys he likes). So it is time to up the ante. Pick one aspect (not all) – and go to town on it. </p>
<p>It’s hard to know when to be tough and how to be tough – particularly if you were raised to be a “nice” girl and be “thoughtful” of people. Alas, young males (be they humans, dogs, horses, goats or roosters) need to bump into a hard assed wall to modify their behavior.</p>
<p>You can tell him “I love you. I adore you. I want you to find a path where you are happy. At the same time, I am convinced that I am being a horrible mother if I let you sleep past 7 a.m. So, it is now my crusade to get you up at 7 a.m. every day (including Saturdays for housework) so I can feel that I have done my job as a mother.”</p>
<p>Dig in and get him to respect you on this one point – and you may find some other areas improve a smidge. About the time he is on the phone, moaning to friends “My mother has gone insane”, you’ll know you are on the right track. </p>
<p>Start small. Dig in. Be relentless on the one aspect. Re-train and then move on to the next behavior that needs improving. </p>
<p>Standard animal training. </p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>Calimom…as many people her know…I have been there, done this. I could 100% be you and Will could be my son. (A “middle” kid too) After many years of battling the same type of behavior (he worked for our company…and jeezz…it’s hard to fire your son) we finally gave son 3 options and I suggest you do the following also:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Check into a residential treatment facility (for the depression, which I would strongly think he has based on your statements and my experience with my own son and if it is not depression, he has a susbtance abuse problem) for a period no less than 30 days, with an agreement to stay at least 90 days if suggested by a doctor.</p></li>
<li><p>If # 1 fails to make an impact…plan # 2. Make it a condition for your son staying in your home to agree to be tested for drugs at whatever time you demand it. Make drugs or being under the influence of drugs the number one “no” in your home. As a condition for him living under your roof, require that he faithfully work his work schedule. He also needs to pay you at least 1/4 of his income, which you can “hold in trust” via a joint savings account. If he fails to due so on any account…and this is where it is very, very hard…but you have to hold the line…go to plan # 3. And I mean hold the line. One failed drug test, one missed day at work…he has to go to plan # 3.</p></li>
<li><p>At this point he has to leave the house. As harsh as this sounds, and it was crazy heartbreaking for me, this was our son’s choice VIA HIS ACTIONS. We had to call the police to have him leave. He locked himself in his room and pleaded with us for another chance. He had spent his chances. Shattered hearts everywhere. He was so angry that he came back that night and threw large rocks thru our five very large glass windows (almost 20K in damage) in our great room. His way of having the last word and my way of knowing I made the right choice. He lived in a park in our city for almost 6 months until he wised up on couch surfing. I went almost 8 months without knowing if he was alive. Everytime I saw a friend of his I would ask if they had seen him. Of course when we made him leave our home, he also lost his job and his company car. We also terminated his phone and his company credit card.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I can’t begin to tell you the pain of the situation. After a year, he came to us and told us the growth over that year was massive. He is now working for us again (has been three years) and living on his own, paying his own bills, yet still entertaining questionable behaviors (drinking and pot) and I have accepted those as long as they do not effect his work performance. In his world it just has to be his way. We live in a pretty affluent area and it just adds to the problem. Kids with money have no problem giving pot away and for almost two years drugs were dealt from our local Wendy’s drive thru. Crazy but true. I can’t tell you what to do. Only you know what cross you can bear. Those were a miserable 13 months for me, and my heart ached with worry. BUT our home was at peace. No crazy behavior, respectful people living together, enjoying each other, etc. It’s just a mother’s heart aches when a bird is out of the nest at her own doing. I would have paid all the money in the world for him to be in intense counseling to help him wrap his mind around the world. To learn coping skills and to be on proper medicaiton if necessary. But your son is poisoning your home. You have to know that, or you would not be here. You have two children who are on the right path. You are being put in a position of keeping that path clear for them or having it litered with the emotional baggage of your son. Stop the madness, stop enabling him and be a team with your husband and make a plan and stick with it.</p>
<p>OlympicLady, I may have been the poster who referred to the “Endless Adolescence” book - I think I also suggested it in this thread. I was actually worried that people would think I was one of the authors because I am raving about it so much! </p>
<p>One effect of reading the book was to make me feel much better about non-traditional paths - that is, not the usual high achieving HS career, followed by high achieving college career, followed by prestigious grad school or professional job. I now look at that “standard” path differently, and see its disadvantages. I look at a lot of things differently, including what I should provide for my children to give them the best chance to become productive, happy adults.</p>
<p>calimom, I’m glad you’ve ordered the book. I think that you will find it very helpful in this situation. In terms of the cousin/boss, I would ask him to give your son a warning that he will be fired if he misses work again. I would emphasize that this is what your son NEEDS at this point, and that allowing him to continue his unacceptable behavior is not doing him any favors. Be appreciative of his kindness, but say that the kind thing now is to take a hard line.</p>
<p>^^^I ordered the book, too! I read the excerpt on Amazon after reading of it on this thread, and was hooked.
I have a feeling that there is good information even for parents whose kids are not as far afield as the son of the OP. Anyone with 20-somethings could probably benefit.</p>
<p>Good luck, calimom. It sounds like you and you husband will be able to do this, together.</p>
<p>like missypie, i worry i will be writing a similar post in a couple of years. this is by way of saying – you are not alone. </p>
<p>sigh.</p>
<p>I am guessing much of what I have to say will be repetitive. Is it depression? Could be? A physical exam might answer that, unlike broken bones it is more complicated to diagnose. Could be “situational” depression. Could be lack of motivation fueled or further fueled by pot smoking. Marijuana would certainly be a contributor to many of his habits.
He does have it easy at home. I have close family with a similar situation- second eldest and all the other siblings are watching to see what the parents do. This is a situation still very much in the making in that household. I don’t know what they have decided yet. So far, that son is also at home, sleeping in, glued to his computer during waking hours. No demands are made of him. </p>
<p>Another relative had a son drop out of high school- hardly able to read. He worked at a junkyard and driving a tow truck. He developed an innovative way of recycling some parts that hadn’t been done before and proved very lucrative. He established a partnership with his boss and ultimately purchased the business outright. He also invested in real estate (at the right time), hired his brothers who finished hs but didn’t have any college interests and now has his own little empire with a healthy 6 figure income. Not every bright kid is serviced well by the educational system such as it is. Not everyone needs to go to college. But everyone is better served by finding their niche and doing their best.</p>
<p>I am of the opinion that some young people without direction( and remember these are free advice opinions so they may be worth what you pay) may benefit from finding a job that is physically demanding -like working at a fish cannery in Alaska.</p>
<p>Tough physical work of any kind often gives them an opportunity to think about what is important to them and what they would really like to do. </p>
<p>I had a good friend whose DAUGHTER dropped out of an Ivy League school (on scholarship of some kind) and wandered about doing jobs all over the world including 2 stints at a fish cannery in Alaska. Went on to be an award winning author. Mom was in all sorts of despair- not knowing how things would turn out- but she had to let her go and figure things out on her own. She is still a successful author, has family and a child of her own. The hardest part is watching them go. The worst part would be watching them stay -that way.</p>
<p>I wish you the best. I would encourage you to have your husband make some adjustments in his work life to show parental solidarity in whatever you decide is the correct direction.</p>
<p>I am guessing much of what I have to say will be repetitive. Is it depression? Could be? A physical exam might answer that, unlike broken bones it is more complicated to diagnose. Could be “situational” depression. Could be lack of motivation fueled or further fueled by pot smoking. Marijuana would certainly be a contributor to many of his habits.
He does have it easy at home. I have close family with a similar situation- second eldest and all the other siblings are watching to see what the parents do. This is a situation still very much in the making in that household. I don’t know what they have decided yet. So far, that son is also at home, sleeping in, glued to his computer during waking hours. No demands are made of him. </p>
<p>Another relative had a son drop out of high school- hardly able to read. He worked at a junkyard and driving a tow truck. He developed an innovative way of recycling some parts that hadn’t been done before and proved very lucrative. He established a partnership with his boss and ultimately purchased the business outright. He also invested in real estate (at the right time), hired his brothers who finished hs but didn’t have any college interests and now has his own little empire with a healthy 6 figure income. Not every bright kid is serviced well by the educational system such as it is. Not everyone needs to go to college. But everyone is better served by finding their niche and doing their best.</p>
<p>I am of the opinion that some young people without direction( and remember these are free advice opinions so they may be worth what you pay) may benefit from finding a job that is physically demanding -like working at a fish cannery in Alaska.</p>
<p>Tough physical work of any kind often gives them an opportunity to think about what is important to them and what they would really like to do. </p>
<p>I had a good friend whose DAUGHTER dropped out of an Ivy League school (on scholarship of some kind) and wandered about doing jobs all over the world including 2 stints at a fish cannery in Alaska. Went on to be an award winning author. Mom was in all sorts of despair- not knowing how things would turn out- but she had to let her go and figure things out on her own. She is still a successful author, has family and a child of her own. The hardest part is watching them go. The worst part would be watching them stay -that way.</p>
<p>I wish you the best. I would encourage you to have your husband make some adjustments in his work life to show parental solidarity in whatever you decide is the correct direction.</p>
<p>Just wanted to offer my best wishes also. Lots of excellent advice here. As the mother of sons, I feel blessed not to have had to come up against this kind of problem, but I know how painful it is to watch our kids have to go through any kind of obstacles. I think some kids, esp. boys, just take longer to figure it all out.</p>
<p>Best wishes to you and your family, calimom!</p>
<p>I don’t have any major suggestions for you, but I do have one additional thought. Does Will have any other interests he might like to pursue? If “all” he’s doing is hanging out at home and going to work, I could see how easy it would be to become depressed or rely on pot and alcohol and “going nowhere” friends. </p>
<p>What if he took up a new hobby, something fun that “just” takes up time? Maybe he’d meet new friends and enjoy doing something else with his time besides work and home. While I’m not depressed or in any situation like his, I’ve definitely noticed that the times when I’m busy are also the times when I manage my time the best.</p>
<p>Perhaps he just needs more things to do.</p>
<p>I am curious. I don’t mean to be offensive if this thread is sincere. But you have used every cc buzzword and phrase in your posts that I could imagine. Except maybe you haven’t used, “think outside the box” yet.</p>
<p>Is this one of those writing exercises like there was a few months ago, where a mom and her daughter used as many cc buzzwords as possible, and made a creative writing story?</p>
<p>If so, you are wasting alot of compassionate posters time. If not, I apologize.</p>
<p>More than anything else, I think your son needs to find direction. Not everyone is a fit for college. We have one son who spent about 1-1/2 years going to a local university. His grades weren’t the best. He took about a year off and did almost all the things your son is doing. About a month before a quarter started, he decided he needed to move out and get a tech degree. He was looking at automotive and welding. I found a community college that offered the programs and he ended up with an associates degree in welding. When he came back home, he was able to get into the plumbers union as an apprentice. </p>
<p>Through the whole process, we went through many of the same things you probably have. We were lucky in that we were able to direct him toward something he liked to do. While it’s easy to say to kick them out and let them fend for themselves, it’s harder to do in practice. It may require that you do so before he’ll start to think about what he wants to do with the rest of his life.</p>
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<p>Your child is in trouble. If mothers can lift cars off of children, then you can do this. </p>
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<p>You never have to, or even could, let him go in your heart. When you come to terms with your part in his current situation, if the offers of screening for mental health issues and a work up for physical issues are rebuffed, you will find the strength to physically let go. You would not keep feeding him something that was making him sick, in that same way eventually you will no longer be able to provide the setting. </p>
<p>His whole life you’ve made sure he had what he needed. This is no different except that it’s not comfortable and it’s probably not intuitive. You are the right path to be getting help by reaching out to professionals and gathering information.</p>
<p>I see no sign that the OP is not sincere. There is a sense of deja vu reading the story, but only because others have posted similar stories. This is a woman who has been dealing with this for 18 months, and who has undoubtedly been reading books and looking for information wherever she could find it - I imagine that any “buzzwords” in the post - not that I noticed any excessive use of jargon - come from these sources of information. Nothing unique about language on CC.</p>
<p>maybe so, NYMom. Just the initial post, every single sentence was put together with cc speak. A strong feeling of deja vu from the other joke. Either way, I always think, whether or not people are for real…there may be somebody out there with a similar problem that may get good advice from the kind and helpful posters on cc.</p>
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<p>This counts for a lot, especially when you still have a kid at home. I know that she is high achieving and you may think she is able to self-manage while you deal with your son, but it is hard to believe that she is not being (or at least feeling) shortchanged in the parental attention department.</p>
<p>OP, I know people have mentioned having a physical, and you may also need a neurological consult as well. S may have a sleep disorder (e.g. apnea, or hypersomnia) that a physical could miss.</p>