Help me Decide: Sciences Po & UC Berkeley Dual Degree [CAD$250k] vs University of Toronto [CAD$120k]

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Context: Canadian from Toronto area. I’ve recently gotten interested in public sector & media consulting in the past year; I am still very interested in politics but I’d like to keep my options open and optimized if I do end up wanting to pursue consulting. My dream is to work in NYC/DC, not Canada, and I will do whatever I can to aim for US + Canada dual citizenship before I am 35.
I am fully aware that it will be difficult or impossible to work in the USA, especially public sector, as a non citizen.

I’m not 10000% sure I want to pursue grad school. Grad school isn’t guaranteed and I’d only do it if necessary.

I think it’s definitely a question of if I want to play it safe or take a risk. I just do not want to regret not taking the leap in the future and am looking to see if the boost from Berkeley in the private sector would be worth it, as an international

Majors:

SciencesPo/Berkeley: government, Political Economy

UofT: Public Policy & Governance, Econ + Urban Studies

Sciences Po & UC Berkeley Dual Degree

Pros:

It’s UC Berkeley and Sciences Po hello? I get two bachelor degrees at the end of the program, and I’ll have a bachelors by 2026

I really would love to be in such a politically charged campus for the 2028 primaries, and having an American degree would help with getting American employment

My goal is the USA and i would really want a head start. I know grad programs exist but they aren’t guaranteed or the same as an undergrad experience

I have a list of the alumni from this program and they’re almost all in high-position high-paying jobs in the USA or in Europe.

Extremely international network and reputation, which could be very helpful. I’ll know someone in each part of the globe after 2 yrs at sciences po who will all go off to do great things

I’m thinking it’s easier to go international → local than the other way around? I talked to an international student at Cal who’s interning for MBB this summer, he says if I want to go to the states I should go at my first opportunity

Cons:

Estimated costs $250k CAD. my parents are planning on selling assets to pay… so no loans or debt

Nobody knows sciences po in North America? Even tho it’s the best politics school in Europe

Hard to get employed abroad as a Canadian (I need to underline this 3x over)

Most of my gripes are with Sciences Po, but the Dual is the best decision financially. I can go to Berkeley for 4 years but i pay full price and such an international experience would benefit myself as a person anyways

University of Toronto

Pros:

Maximum 120k CAD total cost of attendance

From foundation year program:

  • opportunities for local politics and policy (not really abroad though)
  • tiny 25-person classes
  • best social science experience in Canada

FOMO will wear off eventually, and I could “upgrade” for grad school (would that be late for my career?)

I know people in the University already who will be in my clubs/orgs/foundation yr, so existing network

My friend in munk one already got a queens park internship his first summer. Like??? I’d like to think I’d be able to do something similar

Cons:

I’m worried that not getting a head start in the USA will be a detriment to my goals of working in the USA. Compared to Berkeley, it will be so much harder - during and out of undergrad - to get the same positions

huge undergrad population (sciences po has a smaller one, Berkeley has a big one but I’d be a Dual Degree student so id stand out from that)

imagining saying “yeah i turned down Berkeley to go here” gives me the CREEPS lol but that is a minor and mostly mental complaint, relating to how I imagine the regret would hit diff here. Like crying in a lambo (sciencespo/berkeley) vs crying in a honda civic (uoft).

Again, I’m scared i cant stand out from the crowd vying for positions and opportunities even in Canada… At Berkeley i would stand out in applications bc of dual degree status.

TLDR:

Which scenario would be optimal for hiring:

  1. Sciences Po B.A., Berkeley B.A. (Political Econ) (4 years + work experience, unless recruited from undergrad)
  2. UofT B.A. with an MBA or MPA/MPP/Related Master’s in a top target in the USA (about 8 years + work experience)

apologies if i have said any misconceptions, i am still kind of new to this sphere :slight_smile:

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Not sure that I fully understand your options and your career goals.

My initial thought is that you should attend the University of Toronto for your undergraduate years–since it is half the cost of your other option–and attend a US university for grad school with the savings. Try to get a STEM designated graduate degree so that you can remain in the US longer after finishing your graduate degree.

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The Sciences Po part should be cheaper than the UCB part, right? Would you be taking advanced classes at Berleley, or gen eds?
I assume you would be at Sciences Po Reims- have you checked out the curriculum?
Do you speak some French? How autonomous are you (ie., how many dishes can you cook? Have you taken the train before? Have you been abroad before? Have you been away at camp or some place without your parents for a definite length of time?)
A US degree gives you OPT, an optional 12 month window to practice what you learned for your degree and I suppose you could get involved in a 2028 campaign but CA is not the most thrilling state politically, I imagine that in 2028 Wisconsin, Texas or Georgia would be more interesting. Anyway if you were part of a US campaign, which is low pay, could your parents subsidize that experience?
Are your parents okay with paying 2 years at Sciences Po and 2 years at Berkeley ?

The simple answer is UofT (one of the most prestigious universities in Canada, college system, close to Canadian power players, affordable…) but since it doesn’t seem simple to you, can you explain why you compare it to a Honda Civic?

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Please let me know where I can clarify! I know as an 18 year old my goals will change but right now I want to work in political or public sector consulting at a top firm.

I believe an unfunded grad program would be the same end cost as the dual degree. This is the option I would take, had I not been admitted to Berkeley. But I am hesitant about giving up that opportunity to accelerate my career (and skip the grad degree, which is not guaranteed) in the USA.
I’ve browsed a lot of profiles on LinkedIn - everyone at MBB or top political jobs in the USA who did undergrad at UofT have a masters.

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Advanced classes. And yes, Sciences Po is significantly cheaper (although tuition is still double of UofT!!)

I assume you would be at Sciences Po Reims- have you checked out the curriculum?
Do you speak some French? How autonomous are you (ie., how many dishes can you cook? Have you taken the train before? Have you been abroad before? Have you been away at camp or some place without your parents for a definite length of time?)

I have; and I’m speaking with the dual degree coordinator this week to clear up any other questions. I have gotten my B2 for french and have lived in Toronto at a camp for 2 months.

I’d honestly be arriving in the US too late for that cycle anyway (fall 2026) and will aim to get a private sector job in consulting or advertising (fingers crossed, best scenario) right after graduation.

Yes, although they do understand that UofT is a better financial decision.

In the industry I’m comparing (consulting), Berkeley is a target while UofT isn’t even on the list. After UofT, I’d have to get higher education in the USA anyways which would be the same amount as the entire Sciences Po/Berkeley tuition (Wharton, for example, is 170k USD for tuition alone!)
However this is all hinging on my success as a consultant with only Undergrad. I understand it is hard to get there and I probably won’t make it. But I want to make sure this logic is sound :slight_smile:

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This is a poor plan.

Please understand that you will likely be returning to Canada once your student visa ends.

Berkeley has thousands of grads annually. Having two degrees really isn’t going to make you stand out as much as you think it will.

Low pay is an understatement!!!

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is it truly impossible to get a job out of undergrad in the USA as an international student? I am not planning to work in the government.

compared to future grad degree financial plans, would it not be better?

[please understand I am not trying to be combative or that I have made up my mind, i know uoft is the logical option but i worry a lot about fumbling the opportunity to go to Berkeley (a target school) :smiley: ]

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You will have OPT - if your degree has been registered for STEM OPT you will have 2 years (assuming also a 3 month internship), if not you’ll have a year. Then you must return to Canada. Unlike the EU or Canada, which try to retain their international college graduates, the US makes it impossible for companies to hire them (it’s a lottery and who would let a lottery decide their employees?) - and on top of it, instead of giving them an easy pathway to citizenship as the exact type of immigrants that’d benefit the country (Canada’s philosophy), there’s no such path at all. So, no, it’s virtually impossible for an international to get a job and stay in the US, in fact if you had a visa interview and said that it’d be grounds to deny your visa.
Also, check which majors you’re allowed to do at UCB - not all are targets, typically only quants and a few specific majors are, so you’d have to cross reference that with what UCB allows.
OTOH, if you want to work in Europe, the most quantitative degree from sciences po+ any degree from UCB would open doors to Credit Suisse and such (though the Sciences po path that isn’t super quant but has some stats&modelling works too.)

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I’ve heard that major matters less now? either way I’ll be doing political economy.

would it be wiser then to spend more money on a Masters in the US since my endgoal is still NYC political consulting?
I’ve met intl. students at Berkeley and Columbia who have internships at MBB or T2 firms that are kind of confident on their future in the USA. Does that hold truth?

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Not impossible, but unlikely as a US employer may be required to sponsor any international hire–especially if non-STEM. Other posters may know more.

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What’s their major and does it qualify for STEM OPT?

You need to see if Political Economy qualifies but it would definitely include math.

For political consulting you’d really need to get involved in the nitty gritty of campaigns first, because no one is going to hire you without experience. Your best bet is to leverage your sciences po experience (you can have an internship and/or a job as part of your student permit in the EU) then whatever you learn volunteering in whatever capacity you find in CA. Or the same thing but in Canada.

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My understanding is that you are currently a Canadian citizen, live in Canada, and you do not have US citizenship and you do not have permanent residence in the US. If this is correct, then if you attend university in the US, after graduation you will be required to return to your home country (Canada of course in your case). There are some short term temporary exceptions as others have said, but they do not allow you to stay in the US permanently nor to get US citizenship.

UC Berkeley is a very good university. The University of Toronto is a very good university. Both will be academically challenging. Both are large. I consider them to be very much on the same level (and it is a very academically strong and very demanding level).

Basically if you attend UC Berkeley you will be paying twice as much for an equal quality education.

The University of Toronto is very well known worldwide, and very well known in the US. I know a few people who got their bachelor’s degree in Canada, and then got or are about to get graduate degrees in the US. One got their bachelor’s degree at U.Toronto and then got a master’s degree at Stanford (which probably cost them less than just getting a bachelor’s degree in the US). Another got their bachelor’s degree at U.Toronto and then got both a master’s and a PhD at Princeton. Even the top universities in the US know how strong U.Toronto is.

I do not think that there would be a “boost” from studying at UC Berkeley compared to U.Toronto. Staying in the US is likely to be a challenge as a non-US citizen or permanent resident. As a Canadian, finding work in Canada is most likely going to be significantly easier graduating from university in Canada.

I do not understand why someone in the US would hire a consultant who only has a bachelor’s degree (or two), and who does not have the legal right to work in the US. I do not think that this works at all unless I am missing something.

One other thing to think about:

I actually have US/Canada dual citizenship. One issue with this: Wherever in the world that you go, the US requires you to file US taxes. There are at least three problems with this. One is that US taxes are insanely complicated. Another problem is that if you live outside the US, then things like retirement funds become complicated because the US thinks that the money that you are putting into retirement funds outside the US is something that they should tax (there might be some exceptions, or might not – I am not sure whether there is any special consideration for an RRSP). This can become complex enough that you essentially need to consult an expert before you do anything. If you own property (such as a house) outside the US and sell it, then the US feels that they have the right to tax any gain. My understanding is that in Canada you can sell your primary residence and you do not owe taxes to the Canadian government on the sale. However, if you have US citizenship, and you sell your primary residence in Canada, then you owe taxes on it to the US government.

In practice if you take out US citizenship, then you should plan on living down here for the rest of your life. If you are not planning to live here for the rest of your life, then it is just not worth the trouble to get US citizenship.

But then, I do not think that your plan will result in your getting US citizenship.

The University of Toronto is a very good university.

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They are majoring in Economics and is STEM OPT eligible. Econ at Berkeley is also STEM-OPT eligible and I will talk to the dual degree coordinator about that.

would canadian political experience mean anything to american companies & polticical organizations? (I’m guessing not, especially as a non-citizen?)

I’d love to work in canada politics for the start of my career. I just don’t know if it would be easy to pivot out to american politics after.
Also, I’m aware of the experience needed in my future goals, I interned in 6 campaigns :smiley: I want to get hired by an American consulting firm (like global strategy group, Precision Strategies,etc)

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Then your choices are either to take a risk and try to leverage your experience in Canada for experience in Europe&the US + dual degree → OPT (with no guarantee it’ll work) or take the longer path of Canadian university, a few years’ experience there, US graduate degree. I don’t see how Canada->US would work directly so you’ll need a US degree&US experiencein any case.
It sounds like the dual degree matches your goals best though.

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This is definitely the path I would take if I go to UofT, and the safer path that would let me explore my interests a lot more in Canada. My concerns, however, are as follows:

  • My goals will likely lie in US politics (via consulting firm → political consulting firm → whatever lies in the future :slight_smile: ) and I’m concerned I’d be pidgeonholing myself into Canadian politics/work if I stay here for undergrad and a few years after.
  • Master’s degrees are just as expensive as the Dual Degree. UofT + Master’s would be $80k CAD + $250k CAD minimum.
  • I’d essentially be behind recruiting for MBB/Big 4/T2 consulting. Undergrad makes up nearly half of hires for those firms.
  • Worried I won’t be able to be competitive in that industry with a UofT degree (not a target school)

I believe some firms do hire international students (question mark)
But i will talk to my dual degree coordinator more, as well as some other international students :slight_smile:

I do! If all goes well I hope to stay in the States and have a career there.

However if it’s truly truly risky to get hired post-undergrad anyway OR my interests will definitely change, I would rather take the long route. I hope some of my concerns can be assuaged :grin:

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OPT, especially STEM OPT, is typically not a problem (within reason). Getting hired on H1B is a whole other kettle of fish - unless linked to an academic entity which are exempt from the lottery (ie., you work for Marist Polls) they won’t be able to hire you because your name would be part of a literal lottery and odds are almost impossible, plus which company would play Russian roulette like that? Even for an academic institution, you’d have to bring something others can’t (perhaps deep understanding of French speaking Canada&territories like Guadeloupe+ metropolitan France???)

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Yes, I’d definitely be getting an MBA or related degree (a friend at UofT is aiming for the HKS/HBS dual degree and recommends I apply in 7 years too) as soon as i could, after some canadian work experience.
I detailed my concerns with that path in a reply above.

It’s really dependent on my enjoying consulting (not guaranteed) and making it to a top firm that hires internationals (unlikely) WHICH IS SCARY TO BE HONEST but I’d be beating myself up in 4 years if I graduate from UofT and struggle to enter top firms bc I didn’t go to a target, and then now have to trudge through paying for higher ed.
I wish I could look into my future haha :sweat_smile:

they won’t be able to hire you because your name would be part of a literal lottery and odds are almost impossible

Some companies do hire internationals I believe, like MBB, Big 4, and a few T2. But ofc I don’t know that I’d get hired there.

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I don’t think you’re really considering the advice of people on this thread.

You are not a US citizen, but you hope to become one based on your bias about others’ experiences. Take a number.

The rules have changed since Covid. You hope to be permanently and gainfully employed in the US. The list for people seeking to be citizens of the US, is decades long.

The rules for US employers are simple: they have to seek domestic candidate applicants FIRST and FOREMOST for any open positions. Many employers do not sponsor noncitizens because the paperwork and the fees are a hassle. The pay will be even lower.

You’re seeking a future gaining a political sector position among the many political science US students. Going to Berkeley for a dual degree is not going to set you apart. There are sharp students there that also complete double degrees. It’s a state public university funded by its citizens. The classes are large. Sitting in a math class of 500 students isn’t my idea of standing out.

Why would a company consider you and your lack of US cultural experiences, versus, a US citizen for the same position? Unless you have a very specific skills set, that such a political entity desires, then you will be very limited.

Come graduation time, you won’t have US citizenship. After you graduate from a US university your Visa expires and you are required to return to your country.

Going to Berkeley isn’t going to give you the citizenship you are pining to receive. The imaginary scenario you’ve developed Is based on a lot of erred assumptions.

Plus, I don’t think you realize how expensive it is to live in the US. My son-in-law is from Canada. He has told us of the great medical care, benefits and services that Canada provides. Not the case in the US.

Going into the political sector will place you on the low end of the totem pole for wages. How will you afford to live in the US with a low paying position?

As I am a California resident, I welcome your parents’ $75,000 per year into our state coffers. The state of California needs your money to fund our residentprograms.

Remember there are no guarantees that our state nor Berkeley is offering to you. They won’t offer you employment, if you’re not a US citizen. They are definitely not offering citizenship. That department is with US immigration.

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Is this your goal? Hoping @Catcherinthetoast will comment on the ease of international students getting these jobs in the U. S.

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I don’t know about consulting, but I know quite a few people who were able to get a work visa and move to permanent residency (and some to citizenship). However, all of these people have advanced degrees from the U.S. As others have noted, part of getting permanent residency through employment is for the employer tried to hire a U.S. citizen and couldn’t find someone qualified - that is a really high bar when you just graduated from undergrad.