Help me decide: W&L (0k a year), URichmond (0k a year), Haverford (23k), Bowdoin (26k), Davidson (33), Middlebury (30k)

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Hi everyone!

I’ve been fortunate to receive several excellent offers and need help deciding between Washington and Lee (full ride as Johnson Scholar), Bowdoin, Richmond (full ride as Richmond Scholar), Haverford, Davidson, and Middlebury. I’m interested in Economics and Political Science with future goals in policy/law. My parents obviously are leaning to the full rides, but we could do the schools at 25k if they offer significantly more, and if we can potentially negotiate the financial aid offer down (if anyone knows how easy or difficult it is to negotiate, please share). Also if anyone has any info on general prestige of the schools or the scholars programs (grad school placement, job placement, etc), that would be greatly appreciated!

Washington and Lee (JOHNSON SCHOLAR, $0 COA)

PROS:

  • Full ride + $10k summer stipend + everything (flights, tech, books) covered
  • No work expectations
  • Strong Econ & Poli Sci + direct DC access
  • Beautiful campus + high grad salary stats
  • Good alumni network

CONS:

  • Lacks racial and ideological diversity
  • Greek life is dominant
  • Smaller national/global name recognition

Bowdoin College ($26k COA, Faculty Scholar)

PROS:

  • Excellent global affairs & Econ programs
  • $3k research stipend as Faculty Scholar
  • Gorgeous location and great town feel
  • Great food, housing, and outdoor culture
  • Prestigious LAC with strong alumni network
  • Arctic studies program (something really interesting imo)

CONS:

  • Aid reevaluated yearly
  • Remote = fewer local internships
  • Some student work expected

University of Richmond (Richmond Scholar, $0 COA)

PROS:

  • Full ride as a Richmond Scholar
  • Guaranteed summer funding (Richmond Guarantee and 5,500 dollars as Richmond Scholar)
  • Very pretty campus
  • Strong business/Econ + solid Poli Sci
  • Close to DC and Richmond = lots of internship access
  • Great mentorship + advising culture
  • Near city, so more internships access during school calendar

CONS:

  • Less known nationally vs. Bowdoin/Haverford
  • Social scene can be more traditional (some Greek presence)

Haverford College ($23k COA, Reid Scholar)

PROS:

  • No work-study + decent aid
  • Close to Philly for policy/think tank internships
  • Gorgeous campus and nearby UPenn for grad school and research
  • Tight Tri-Co access (Bryn Mawr & Swarthmore)

CONS:

  • Econ is more theoretical than applied
  • Smaller alumni network for Poli Sci
  • Very quiet campus—might feel isolating socially

Davidson College ($35k COA)

PROS:

  • Strong Poli Sci & Econ, especially for law/public service
  • Accessible profs + academic rigor
  • Good merit aid and funding opportunities
  • Near Charlotte = internship options
  • Shockingly high graduate placement from what I can see online
  • People LOVE this school from what I can tell

CONS:

  • Highest cost
  • Greek/social scene dominates
  • Regional recognition > national
  • Very high price, tough to justify

Middlebury College ($30k COA)

PROS:

  • Excellent for global affairs & international Poli Sci
  • Very strong Econ program
  • Emphasis on study abroad
  • Gorgeous campus and outdoor life
  • Strong marine science program (interested in utilizing)

CONS:

  • Cost is up there
  • Remote Vermont = fewer immediate opportunities
  • Winters are rough + social scene is quieter

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Particularly interested in which option best positions me for future public polciy opportunities for grad school (potentially MBA or MPP) while providing the best overall experience. Thank you so much!

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Congratulations on your acceptances and merit awards!

It’s difficult to tell from your list which school you prefer…which is your favorite? Have you visited them all?

Job and grad school placement will be excellent for all these choices, I doubt any have a clear advantage. I would find out how many students have actual internships during the school year in your departments at these schools… I probably wouldn’t make that a significant consideration. You could ask the heads of the departments and/or the career center how often students have major related work during the school year. At all of these schools, you will have to hustle for summer internships.

Has anything in your financial situation changed? Were the FA packages the same as your NPC results? I don’t see any of the schools increasing their need based aid offer based on the merit offers of W&L and URichmond.

You can ask of course…the best strategy is to go in telling them what COA you need to make it work and that you will accept if they meet it. If you try to play them off each other, I don’t think it’s going to go well. I would be mindful of people’s time…if Middlebury can’t win unless they go to $0, I probably wouldn’t make that contact. It’s also appropriate to have parents participating in the calls with FA.

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Focus on the two full-ride offers.

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With respect to your academic interests, this analysis may offer you a sense for your choices’ economics departments:

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These schools are all pretty equal when it comes to prestige and career outcomes. Therefore there are only two major considerations: financial, and which you prefer. No one here can tell you which school is better for you, since they are all excellent. Only you know which one feels more comfortable.

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It’s a bit of a Hobson’s choice because the very reason the merit-based colleges award these packages is because without them they wouldn’t be able to compete with the need-based colleges and - let’s face it - the need-based colleges are betting that their name-recognition will be worth the money to the average upper-middle-class family.

I don’t think any of us can answer the real question for you which is, where you will be happiest and whether it will be worth the extra money to attend? It certainly appears, at first blush, that the need-based colleges have been very generous; they’ve made it possible to attend T20 private colleges for the same price as an in-state public flagship. That’s not a bad deal.

OTOH, free is good too and one would have to get very picky to overlook a full-ride aid package. But let’s do it anyway:

W&L and URichmond are going to be very different experiences from Haverford and Middlebury; they have way more students studying things like business accounting than you will find at places like Middlebury, Haverford, or Bowdoin. That may sound like a minor thing, but these are small places; a tip in the balance one direction or the other affects their vibe. Do you like political activism? You probably won’t find it at W&L or Richmond and at W&L you will have to contend with a much more conservative administration and alumni base.

Davidson may well be the Goldilocks choice here in that it seems to have its share of preprofessional programs (pre-law, pre-med, engineering, etc.) without being overwhelmed by them. And there’s a good deal of school spirit around its Division I basketball team.

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The administration at W&L is not “more conservative”. Some of the older, pre-coed alumni base certainly is, though, although that has zero impact on current students.

W&L competes with “need based” colleges on the academic front; however it has nonacademic institutional priorities – increasing diversity among them.

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This thread seems pertinent:

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Hi, we successfully appealed for more financial aid at Bowdoin for our S25 last week. Our financial circumstances have not changed, but we did provide some additional context about our cost of living and explained politely but clearly that he would not be able to attend with the original aid package and named the amount that he would need. I suggest that you phrase it as a request for reconsideration, NOT a negotiation–Bowdoin states very clearly that they do not match competing offers, and I’m sure they know that many of their applicants are considering big merit packages elsewhere. My kid was awarded an additional $6k.

Good luck! You have wonderful offers to choose from.

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How much lower does the net price have to be for it to be realistic for you?

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@DramaMama2021 perhaps you can discuss the benefits of the Johnson at WL, and the college experience in general.

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I can speak for W&L (as a current student, so somewhat biased here).

To address some of your cons:

  1. Racial & ideological diversity - Racial diversity is definitely something W&L is working on improving, but by no means is it not present on campus. W&L has a very strong cultural community that often puts on events - Around the Globe W&L is putting on their annual festival tomorrow, and we have other student orgs like PAACE (Pan-Asian Association for Culutural Exchange), Irie (They just did their Reggae Fest), SASA (South Asian Student Association), and many other student activities. Throughout the year they do events, or collab with other student orgs for festivals for the Lunar New Year, Ramadan, and others that highlight their cultures. As an Asian-American on campus, we’re certainly not the majority, but we make up for that in the amount of cultural celebration we do. For Ideological diversity, I would say W&L has a lot of differing viewpoints, and oftentimes is one of the best places to foster these conversations. Politically, there are student organizations on campus that represent a multitude of views, and the speakers that come to W&L speak from various perspectives. Beyond that, people at W&L respect each other’s beliefs: I’ve had many mutually respectful debates with some of my friends with who I may not see eye to eye. But regardless of our views, we’re all still great friends and I enjoy being with them. W&L does have a reputation for leaning a certain way politically, but that reputation doesn’t represent the true nature of W&L’s student population - it’s a melting pot of different views, which each one of us respects.

  2. Greek life - Greek life is certainly dominant on campus - 70% of the class of 2028 (last I checked) was involved in greek life. BUT that doesn’t mean you can’t have a life if you’re not affiliated. I myself am not affiliated, and I still have plenty of fun on campus through other events. W&L has a study hard/party hard mentality, and that’s one of the big things associated with Greek Life beyond brotherhood/sisterhood. Suppose partying isn’t your thing, or just Greek life in General. In that case, W&L has student orgs like Friday Underground (FUDG) which offers spaces for you to socialize/decompress without the presence of alcohol which you’ll find in the general party area, the Hill. You don’t have to be in Greek life to both have fun, and also have incredible opportunities. Your college years are what you make of it - you will find people you want to spend time with, and that’s what matters.

  3. Smaller National/Global Name Recognition - To phrase it, W&L is well known in the areas it needs to be well known. Like you said, W&L has an incredible alumni network, and that’s where the name recognition kicks in. While we aren’t as recognizable as some of the Ivies, employers know us, and that is what helps W&L Alumni get their foot in the door for internships and jobs.

Hope my brain dump kind of clarifies it for you - my second answer is more of a jumble of words, but it’s what I think about how Greek life impacts W&L. Regardless, I hope to see you on campus in the fall!

DramaMama can speak more of the Johnson benefits, which, congratulations by the way! It’s an incredible achievement, and a testament to your journey to college.

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Thank you so much! It’s great to hear from a Washington and Lee student, with a firsthand perspective, outside of the all the jargon from websites. You gave me a wonderful perspective, and I thank you.

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Congratulations! All are wonderful schools, all have name recognition, and all will provide you a fantastic education and supports for internships and eventual job/grad school searches. You don’t have to worry about these factors with any of these schools. If you’re leaning toward some that haven’t offered you free rides, then try to negotiate with the financial aid folks before making your final decision.

Among the schools you can afford, you should really focus on fit. If you’re wary of a school that has Greek life, that’s important – you’ll want to find out how much the Greek system dominates social life and how many social outlets there are outside of it. If political climate is important to you, see if you can get a sense of which schools feel like a good fit. You can find your people at almost any school, but I understand that you’ll want to be someplace where you don’t have to look too hard for them. It’s great to stretch yourself and surround yourself with new people, but you don’t want to live entirely out of your comfort zone. One way to assess this is to look at the list of clubs and try to get in touch with officers of a few clubs that really interest you to see how active they are (my D23 did this and it helped her make her decision). When you’ve narrowed it down, try to visit top-choice schools in the next week or two to see how they feel to you. Talk to students and professors if you can (even without visiting).

One thing I would not worry about is the prospect of local internships. For the most part, internships don’t take place during the school year – they can, but most students do that during the summer. Every one of these schools can help you find fantastic summer internships – these don’t need to be local. However, many schools do offer opportunities for community engagement and applied learning during the school year, so it might be worth it to check out what those opportunities might look like. Look for offices of community engagement, and also programs for applied learning or civic engagement within your prospective majors.

Good luck!

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I can’t beat the excellent first hand feedback from current freshman @V3rnor. But as the parent of a W&L senior Johnson Scholar, I’m happy to answer any questions based on my D’s experience.

I would like to address a comment made upthread. The current administration and faculty are not conservative. That is outdated information. The President since 2017 is a former provost and professor of philosophy at Williams College and has made attracting highly qualified and increasingly diverse students, faculty, and staff a priority.

Additionally “younger” alumni (meaning since the school became coed in the 80s) support his vision. The Class of 1994 supported the Office of Inclusion and Engagement (OIE) by raising more than $1M as its 25th reunion project. A group of Black alumni endowed the George Floyd fund to further support the OIE. These are just two examples but reflect the current campus attitudes.

Congratulations on these excellent acceptances! Any one of them can help you achieve your goals so it really comes down to which you feel is your best fit. Best of luck!

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To me, this is a W&L vs. Richmond. The Midds, Bowdoins, and Haverfords of the world are need based. They have no merit. What you go from Richmond and W&L is merit. So personally I wouldn’t bother. A parent above noted a reconsideration at Bowdoin - so if a school came down $5-10K, does that change the mindset?

I think, for policy and law, the where matters little. By that, I mean - my daughter turned down W&L for a regional public and did a DC semester. She had 7 intern offers (5 paid) and interned at a major think tank. For law school, where you go undergrad won’t matter - a Harvard is represented by 140+ colleges in its first year class alone.

So don’t worry about prestige - although these are all FANTASTIC names. And you have the potential to do well, to take advantage of such fantastic opportunities at any of them!!

I’d worry about - W&L is more isolated in some ways - but closer to things than Richmond…an odd statement but you roll down a hill into a little cute town. Richmond is in Richmond - but not the inner city itself - so you’re a a bit disconnected from wanting to do things.

Richmond has a large proportion of business kids - whereas W&L has business but it’s not so dominant.

I’ll share with you one thing told to use by a Prof at W&L - we were self touring during covid and he stopped us. He noted, on a per capita basis, that W&L places more kids in DC than any other college in the country, with the exception of Sewanee. Of course, that may change with DC shrinking in workforce by the day.

But for grad school, job placement and more - these schools are fine. Richmond does exceptionally well - but that’s the business school part.

You’ve crushed it - congrats - and got great admits - there isn’t one here better than the other - but there is one better for you (and your family financially) - and that’s what I’d attend.

Forget the school names - look at the environments and the enrichment offered - which works best for you.

Here’s placement from the two. Best of luck.

Alumni Outcomes Six Months After Graduation : Washington and Lee University

Outcomes - University of Richmond

Survey2024_1YrOutAlumniClass2023.pdf

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It bears Repeating that career outcome reports need to be carefully reviewed and taken in many cases with a large grain of salt.

Ditto for internship reports. One of my sons interned at two large well-known companies when he was an engineering undergrad. He chose two different internship opportunities to get a feel for these different sides of the industry. One of his classmates also interned at one of those companies, but she worked in HR. That could be misconstrued as someone thinking she had a different kind of internship.

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It sounds like some form of graduate school is very likely for you. Law school is expensive. Master’s degrees typically take less time (which implies paying tuition for less time) but are usually not funded at all except by either the bank of Mom and Dad or by loans. Saving money to use for graduate school to me sounds like a very good idea.

I might add that we currently have two daughters in graduate programs, and we are currently very glad that we did exactly that years ago when our daughters were deciding which university to attend for their bachelor’s degrees.

This is certainly very true. You have been accepted to quite a few very good schools. Congratulations!

Graduate school admissions in general is highly driven by what you did as an undergraduate student plus other experience that you have obtained. Where you got your bachelor’s degree is typically much, much less important. Also, you are comparing very good colleges. I really do not think that you would have trouble applying to graduate programs (whether law school or something else) based on having attended any of the schools that you have been admitted to.

How you do as a student at any of these schools is of course up to you. However, the fact that you have been admitted to such a long list of very good schools suggests that quite a few admissions officers are confident that you are likely to do well.

And of course Washington and Lee has a very good law school.

We have some experience with graduate school admissions (in my immediate family all four of us attended or are currently attending some form of graduate program, all of which are well ranked). What we have consistently found, and what we have heard from others, is that in highly ranked graduate programs the various students typically come from a very, very wide range of undergraduate colleges and universities. If you look at the students at a “top 50” or even “top 10” graduate programs, you will find that they came from all over the place. You will most likely find quite a few students who came from schools that are ranked lower than anything that you are considering. Similarly hiring managers typically are used to reviewing and hiring candidates from a wide range of schools.

All of which means that I tend to agree with your parents. You have been accepted to six very good schools. It sounds like the cost of education matters to your family. With graduate school as a realistic possibility, I would be inclined to choose from the two full ride offers. You can both get an excellent education, and save money for graduate programs (or to help a sibling, or to help your parents, or all of the above).

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W&L and UR are both very high ranked and will offer a superlative educational experience - one in a city, one in the countryside but with privileged access to DC (though you may want to ask how that’s changing due to the new administration gutting agencies).
In terms of vibe they’re different from Haverford but I’m not sure it’s worth the cost differential.
However, if after visiting you have a strong dislike for either W&L or UR, you could always review your opportunities.

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Also, to be very clear, you are not trading prestige for merit in W&L’s case (which is usually the tradeoff one has to make). W&L is as highly ranked (if not more highly ranked) as Middlebury, Davidson, Haverford and Bowdoin.

I hope you aren’t following Groucho Marx’s philosophy :slight_smile: (“I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member” translated for college admissions “. . . That gives me a full ride”)

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