Canadian schools tend to be less expensive than comparable US schools.
I just checked Simon Fraser University outside of Vancouver and costs for international students (tuition, room and board) are the equivalent of 37k USD (when I applied an exchange rate of .7 which is pretty typical for the past 6 years).
UBC is 36k USD for CS tuition – you would still need to account for room and board. (Although I will say that when we figured out college costs, we accounted for the fact that we wouldn’t have either food bills for 8 months of the year and we would no longer be spending on HS EC costs. So I added that back into the budget when I looked at costs. Also, some Canadian schools charge different tuitions for different majors, so be sure to look at that.
Also, some Canadian schools take the FAFSA, and some offer merit.
I would definitely look into them at some point just to make sure.
Feel free to message me anytime! I’m happy to answer anything I can.
My son is an engineer (Civil and Mechanical double major) so not the majors that your daughter is looking at, but I’d be happy to chat about the school. In general, he’s really loved the project based environment. His freshman year he was in a two term (it’s a quarter based system, so the term is seven weeks long) class called “Power the World” about renewable energy, bringing energy to underserved locations, how to better store and transport energy, etc. They did a big project the second term and he won a schoolwide competition. Junior year every student does a term long project - most of them are abroad. He went to Greece with 25ish other students. Three others were on his specific team and they worked with a pomegranate farm that was basically a center for drug/alcohol addicts getting back into the workforce - the farm had no data management system, no way to track inventory or orders, no internal calendars or filing methodology, limited web presence. So the team set up all of that - the point of the junior year project isn’t to work within your major, but to work with other people on some kind of real world project to solve a problem. It’s more about project management, team work, and collaboration plus learning something new. Most of the locations are abroad, and you can select which ones are greater interest (you would likely avoid countries that are not trans friendly, we avoided countries where ADHD meds are illegal). (You get an extra scholarship to help pay for these abroad trips. My son’s group had some people who were well off, and others who had much less disposable income - as long as you steer away from the very expensive locations, it’s very doable for all income levels.) Senior year students do an all year long project under the supervision of a professor - the students can come up with their own ideas or work on a pre-existing research project.
The seven week terms aren’t great for everyone. It moves fast, but you only take three classes at a time so there’s fewer things to focus on. I was worried for my guy - as mentioned, he has ADHD and he’s also dyslexic so sometimes he reads slower. But it’s actually been great. With fewer classes at once you can more easily prioritize work and do deep dives into the things that interest you.
The MIT fly-in is a great indication that her profile is of interest for competitive programs and will also be a great way for her to experience life on a college campus away from AK.
I’m not sure Canada is the right choice but thought I’d put this info out there in case you’re considering it…
An issue with Vancouver is a sky-high cost of housing. Canadian universities also typically have large class sizes and are overall large.
Perhaps these might work better financially and wrt smaller class sizes though I’m not sure about major.
Also in Canada, you have the 2-step Québec system which may work well with your child’s wishes: first, CEGEP, a smaller (1,000-5,000) college for 17-20 year olds which covers a “first specialization” for half the courses (differential equations, mechanics, etc) and gen eds for the rest (philosophy/ethics, English, French, “activity for health”) with a project during the 4th semester. The classes are small and the professors more friendly than in universities but the students still get to manage their schedule, can work, live on or off campus if they wish… CÉGEPs lead to the large Québec universities (30,000+ students) and a major, starting right into the second year (either Year2 outside Quebec, or in Québec Year 1, where Year 0 is catching up for those outside Quebec who didn’t do CEGEP), typically with more independence&self confidence. Much cheaper than university. CÉGEPs results can lead to scholarships from universities for the last 3 years. CÉGEPs tuition is about 10k a year.
An example (pretty straightforward admission process: submit grades, hear back within a month or so)
All English-speaking CEGEPs:
Champlain Regional College, Dawson College, Heritage College, John Abbott College, Marianopolis College, and Vanier College.
Impacts of Law 14 on international applicants are less likely to matter at Champlain Lennoxville (and branches) than at the Montréal/Québec city CÉGEPs where priority (local) students are more likely to fill available spaces.
Yes it’s optional - American students just do “Year Zero” at McGill or Concordia. It is however more expensive.
For students who are ready to leave HS but aren’t ready for big university lecture halls it’s a good system.
It’s also a good deal for students in the British system since GCSE students can apply, no need for A Levels.
American students need to have Precalc Honors or AP Calc plus AP Physics 1 for the STEM ones.
Since English speaking CÉGEPs (except for Champlain Regional and 7ilesRegional*) tended to have more applications than French speaking ones (both from internationals and from Canadians), the “14” decree and how each cégep applies it would likely make it harder for international English speakers due to the new requirement of taking DELF scolaire or TEF or TCF with minimal scores to be obtained by May for Fall entrance. Before that international students could enroll at English speaking CEGEPs even if they didn’t know any French and local candidates weren’t prioritized. Now, local students have priority and no need to take a French test prior to enrolling.
I don’t think I’d assume a smaller vs larger school would be the best fit for this student.
There is ample opportunity for interaction with faculty at many larger schools, there are often more avenues for engaging in research, and for this student there will likely be a wider range of course offerings and faculty research interests at larger vs smaller schools. In many of the areas she’ll likely be studying class size is not the most important thing as she’ll have p set groups, study sessions, discussion sessions, labs, office hours for faculty and TAs, etc.
I would worry about many small LACs not having sufficient course offerings for her given how accelerated she is in math and her specific academic interests. That’s what I’d take a close look at if I were her. I’d also consider the social possibilities of a larger campus vs smaller.
Given the need based aid possibilities there’s no reason not to include schools like Cornell, Stanford, Penn, Princeton, etc. in the search along with the MITs, Pomonas, Whitmans, etc. I think the idea of using the MIT visit to explore east coast schools mentioned above isn’t a bad idea. There’s pretty easy train access from Boston to Brown, Yale, Columbia, Princeton, Penn. But it doesn’t need to be super selective schools. If she’s connecting through Seattle she could take the light rail to UW just to see what a larger school campus is like, for example, even if UW isn’t likely to fit within her financial parameters.
While this student is nicely advanced in mathematics, it appears she will enter college yet to have taken courses in topics such as real analysis, modern algebra, complex analysis, topology and functional analysis. I would not be concerned about her exhausting available courses at an LAC with a strong math department, particularly since her chosen courses of emphasis may range across several fields, such as — in addition to mathematics and statistics — computer science and biology.
I also think it is worth noting that many good LAC Math departments offer classes that are called something like “directed study”, “directed research,” “advanced topics in”, “seminar in”, “independent study”, or so on, often along with some senior thesis/research/capstone things. The Math professors teaching these are obviously very advanced in math, and they can use courses like that to basically teach their undergrad Math majors whatever advanced math they are mutually interested in.
Of course if someone prefers a more formalized curriculum, that is fine. But I think the idea of “running out” of math to learn in these colleges is not necessarily all that applicable when you realize the Math professors actually do have plenty of math to teach.
However, this student is interested in applied math and CS, with a particular focus in molecular biology. That is not the same as a typical Math major nor something a typical small LAC Math department is necessarily well-equipped to deal with through independent study courses. Some might be, but many won’t.
Compare to a larger university with an applied math major, a robust CS department, an operations research major, a computational biology major or grad program, etc., and the range of course offerings and faculty expertise one might find in this student’s areas of interest at such an institution.
So, it isn’t about “running out” of math. It’s that this student will enter college ready to engage in the sort of specialized coursework that many students don’t get to until the final few years of college, and has fairly specific and well-defined interests that a larger (or more STEM focused) school might better be able to accommodate
For a combination of interests such as this, colleges with an available major in data science may offer advantages. In this example, courses in statistics and computing would support inquiry into the applied domain of biochemistry / molecular biology.
So potentially you would be talking about three or four different departments for all of that–Math for Applied Math, CS for CS, and then Bio or Bio and Chem for Molecular Biology. You would be looking for coverage in all those areas and also a curriculum structure with the flexibility to combine your interests.
I also agree with another poster one way you might be able to help do that would be if they offered Data Science as a formal program–could be a major, minor, concentration within CS, or so on. A Statistics major or minor might be another alternative.
Just to give an example of the variety of things you might find, Harvey Mudd has what they call an “emphasis” in Data Science:
As they explain, it isn’t a traditional major or minor, it is something you sort of layer on top of other majors that helps guide your elective course choice and your capstone experience.
But I note Mudd also lists a variety of alternatives:
While the Emphasis in Data Science is an excellent way to incorporate data science content into one’s degree path, there are plenty of academic options available for Harvey Mudd College students – especially since there are a wide variety of courses taught on data scientific topics across The Claremont Colleges. Students may:
Complete their HSA concentration on a relevant topic.
Design a major in data science as an individual program of studies (IPS).
Double-major in a Harvey Mudd technical discipline and in data science at another 5C institution.
Complete an off-campus major in data science at one of the 5Cs.
Complete the requirements of a typical major in data science without entering into a formal program
Some of those are obviously specific to Mudd being one of the Claremont Colleges, but others would potentially apply at other LACs.
An alternative I would highlight is designing your own major. This is an option at a variety of LACs, and one of the usual intended uses is to allow students with this sort of multidisciplinary interest to put together a viable four-year curriculum plan, even if there is no existing formal multidisciplinary program that exactly fits their interests.
Anyway, that’s just Mudd, but my point is rather than try to rely on generalities, I would suggest this kid (and others) with multidisciplinary interests should check out colleges in detail to see what options they might have for students with those interests, both pre-existing and as a design your own possibility.
Just for fun, I thought I would also briefly discuss Carleton, another of my recommendations which I happen to know a bit more than usual about because it was a final contender for my S24.
Carleton has a robust Math department. You can formally major in Math or Statistics, and it also has guidance for “areas of interest” that incorporates courses from other departments. Two of those possible areas of interest are Applied Math and Data Science:
They also provide guidance for graduate studies, including Biostatistics.
And then they also have a formal minor in Data Science:
You can’t do that minor if you are a Statistics major, but you can if you are a Math or CS major, although you then have to limit the number of electives from your home department.
Carleton’s Bio and Chem departments (both independently quite good) also co-host a Biochemistry minor that could be of interest to the OP’s kid:
Or you could also approach this from a CS direction. Yet another strong department at Carleton (they are one of the strongest STEM LACs outside of the STEM specialists like Mudd), and CS again has a variety of possible areas of interest, and actually one of those is Computational Biology:
As previously noted, you could do CS with a Data Science minor, or a Biochem minor, or maybe both (which sounds like a lot but they are on a quarter system so you actually get more classes to work with).
OK, again, this is just Carleton. But like Mudd, they have a variety of different possible ways of combining these interests. And you don’t have to decide in advance, you can get going and work with your advisor and see how things go before picking a specific curriculum plan.
I would again suggest the important thing is making sure they do have robust departments and alternatives available, which you can learn about when exploring these sorts of LACs in detail.
Just a thought- if most of the academic experiences have been online, self-taught, type settings, I’d take the “likes and dislikes” as datapoints- but not necessarily “must haves”.
The great thing about college is taking a class because it fits your schedule and meets in a building near another class to cut down on “running around time”- and discovering that you love it. Or taking a class you have no interest in, because every senior you meet says “do not graduate without taking a class with Professor X” and learning that this particular discipline is the most exciting and challenging thing in the entire world.
And of course- the reverse is true. I showed up in college a zillion years ago intent on majoring in archaeology– and first semester freshman year discovered that I absolutely hated it. It wasn’t doing actual fieldwork- but the first pre-requisite was a class in “Field Techniques” which focused on learning to measure primate skulls, examining the chemical and molecular composition of soil from around the world, understanding the patterns of lava flow in different climates, mapping geological changes during climate events, etc. I thought I’d be looking at incredible coins and jewelry from ancient Egypt– and was staring at mud samples and writing lab reports on carbon dating.
So for sure make it a priority that the milieu and social environment is comfortable and appropriate. But there are going to be a lot of jumping off points intellectually– and shifts and changes- and that’s really great also. Online learning is very different from sitting in a classroom with other students, a professor who really makes the material come alive (or not), etc. We joked that one of my kids started in Astronomy and Ended in Zoology having run through the entire alphabet– but that was a feature, not a bug. College for this kid was about falling in love with new stuff every other week!
How funny! I think I would love to look at mud samples and write reports on carbon dating! And I think we went to the same undergrad college, but I never knew about that course.
In a dusty basement in one of the science buildings– when I saw Raiders of the Lost Ark I had a flashback…. soil samples, really? It was one of those “something tells me I’m not in Kansas anymore” moments!
I’m aware of this – she isn’t. It’s hard for a kid coming from her situation to really know what she wants, so I’ve been trying to lean into her positive wants rather than the negative ones in the discussion. As in, it’s probably better to pick something because you think it will allow you to interact with professors in small classes rather than because it won’t make you take English classes. She had one science summer camp type experience summer after 9th and that’s what she’s going off – that she really liked being able to interact with the prof.
I was kind of like her as a teen. I thought I hated history from high school, so filled that requirement at college with philosophy (which was awesome, but I’m sure the history classes were also good), and figured out that I could avoid literature by taking studio art. In hindsight, I should have been more open minded, but kids are going to have to learn their own lessons.
I also think it’s a bit hard for her to imagine the shift from the high-school setup where you take every subject every semester. As in, it seems sad not to study math, cs, and science every semester, since she really likes all those, and general education requirements appear to cut into that.
It is common in college to take 1/3 to 1/2 of one’s courses in one’s major, with science majors typically commonly closer to 1/2, as well as almost requiring some major course work each semester in order to stay on top of prerequisite sequences.
However, upper level students usually do not take an upper level math and an upper level science and and upper level computer science course each semester (as opposed to two or three upper level courses in whatever their major is, like two or three math courses, two or three biology courses, or two or three computer science courses).
