My husband wanted me to call with a veto list of names. I asked if he was out of his mind. I am just smiling and nodding. And getting to see the ultra sound 
"I told her this could be a problem in getting a religious ceremony, which she has stated she wants. Any ideas I could present to her? "
It’s not for you to present or not. If she wants a religious ceremony and a rabbi won’t preside without a circ, then she’s going to have to make a decision about which she wants more. If she wants to fight that battle with the rabbi, that’s her prerogative. But this is her problem, not yours.
Vax is an entirely different situation as this is a health-and-safety issue where there is a clear, scientific, right choice.
I’m confused. Is the ceremony for the couple or a future baby?
My sister was recently invited to a bris (a traditional religious Jewish 8-day-old circumcision ceremony) and we ended up discussing this issue at length, both pros and cons (which I will not get into here). I think it’s an interesting issue precisely because it does bring up the contradictions between some modern medical practices and the ideas of adult consent. We went from that discussion to a discussion of the Maasai rituals around the same practice, where consent is needed (since the age for those rituals is 14-21, as it’s done at 7 year intervals for a group of youth all at the same time)–and where some are choosing to have the procedure done in a hospital.
My sister’s choice was to arrive late to the ceremony.
“far it is paying off: I’ve been invited to visit, go to doctor’s appts, and tour the hospital. I’m offering no opinions. No one has asked for my opinion! I haven’t even sent any advice books.”
First, congrats, alh!
I admit I’m in an odd position since H is an OB, but I would not expect to be invited to a future DIL’s doctor visits throughout her pregnancy. That’s for her to manage, or her and her husband. I would not expect to accompany a hypothetical pg D to the doctor either unless specifically requested. I don’t know, when I need to go to a doctor, that was for me to do by myself, not to bring an audience. I get accompanying someone to a doctor if they are elderly/get confused/need help processing the info/have physical limitations or if very bad news is expected (like a cancer diagnosis) where the person may want emotional support, but a regular pregnancy - personally, no, I don’t think that’s my place. Of course, everyone else, you do you.
I remember wanting to have my daughter’s ears pierced when she was young. My husband was against doing this at an age where she did not have an opinion on the matter. So I waited expecting her to ask for it as a teenager. Nope, no pierced ears to this day. I can understand the point of allowing them a choice.
Jewish friends of mine went through this years ago and had what they called an alternative bris that didn’t involve circumcision. I’m not sure if they found a rabbi to attend but if you could find one, it is probably most likely in Europe where very few baby boys are circumcised.
I agree that vaccines are a different matter, and car seats too.
Sorry, just reread the original post. You are having the ceremony in the US? You may still be able to find a willing rabbi.
Agree that if dau wants a religious ceremony in the US, she is a big girl and can contact clergy and discuss these issues herself. Not all reform rabbis will preside over an interfaith ceremony, and those who will probably are more open-minded about some of these general issues. But the clergy she speaks to will address what their policies are with respect to expectations of the family’s future plans. Of course it cannot be enforced-- it’s a promise her daughter would make. If she cannot make it, should she have a boy, she needs to move on to see if she can find a rabbi who will be flexible on this with her… Or she needs to have a civil ceremony in the US, or no ceremony at all.
Apparently these people are called INTACTIVISTS. Need to find one of them!
Is this the TCS / Taking Children Seriously movement? I remember hearing about years ago. If so, it’s complete whack job territory. Forget circ or religion or vax - TCS would say if your kid doesn’t want to get in the car seat or brush his teeth, you don’t force him. Or if he wants to run out into the street in rush hour traffic, you let him. Consequences should only be natural. Their patron saint is Karl Popper.
I hate to say it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if D1 were to ask me to go with her for her doctor’s appts if/when she is pregnant. I probably would be in the delivery room with her.
There is a lot of dissent in Sweden over discipline. A parent may yell, but never touch a child for discipline.
It’s one thing to touch a hot stove and learn that that’s a bad idea. It’s another thing to run out into the street in rush hour traffic, he may not get a chance to learn a lesson, since he may not survive. There’s a difference. I’d call that child abuse.
ETA: When I was a kid, I didn’t want to brush my teeth, and I’d lie to my mother about having done it. Now that I’m an adult with lousy teeth, boy, do I wish she had made me brush them!
But this isn’t about discipline. It is about religious beliefs. At least with the rabbi you spoke to, she can’t have it both ways. SO she either finds a rabbi who does not have the same expectations, she tells him what she wants to hear (I hope that one isn’t selected) or she forgoes the religious ceremony.
FWIW, my DIL mentioned in passing that her sister (a physician who is married to someone of another religion) was pretty unsettled after her son’s circ. last year, and suggested my DIL think about it should they have a kid and it is a boy. My S and DIL are both Jewish, and they asked our thoughts. I wasn’t sure how honest to be, but suggested they think about what it might be like if that boy were in a religious camp or school and had to change clothes in front of others. It is their choice, but they are not, like your daughter, in the position of trying to coordinate a religious wedding ceremony. If I were you, I’d stay out of it- don’t reach out to any rabbis for her. If it’s important to her, even from across the pond, she can do her own legwork.
I had very hands off parents who very rarely forced me to do anything. “Because I said so” and “because I’m the adult” just were not phrases that were used in my house. I was never hit and even yelling was pretty rare… at least from what I can remember. The result is that I probably have more scars than the average young person but I also have some awesome memories and a healthy sense of adventure
But that doesn’t mean you let your child put themselves in unnecessary, mortal danger. There is a difference and it’s not even a fuzzy line.
Like I said, oldfort, you do you :-). I’m not judging what others do in this regard.
@romanigypsyeyes: Did they make you brush your teeth? Get vaccinated? Go to school? IMO, those are all necessary things for responsible parents to handle, even if in general they want their children to be free spirits.
Are these the same types of people who don’t want to neuter their dog because it isn’t “natural”?
Go to school: yes, since you legally must go to school.
Brush your teeth: honestly, I don’t remember but I do brush my teeth now and have since I can remember. I never remember being forced or even told to though.
Get vaccinated: yes, since not getting vaccinated is putting your child and others in mortal danger (I’ve already said my piece about vaccines).
And all of my dogs are fixed because I work in dog rescue and most non-human animals will never be able to give consent.
Again, I’m just speaking as someone who is in the D’s position. I don’t pretend to be a parent but I can give the perspective of someone without kids but who will probably have them sometime in the next few years.
Does the kid decide if he or she wants to go to school any particular day? My middle son would never have graduated from middle school!
You weren’t born knowing how to brush your teeth. At one point, your parents put toothpaste on a brush and did it for you, and maybe you made a face or spit it out. But presumably they persevered - not meanly, but matter of factly. And presumably at one point they showed you how to hold the brush yourself, and reinforced the concept that we brush in the morning and at night. Maybe they bought you a fun-flavor toothpaste to entice you, or sang a funny song. TCS people consider this all “coercion.”
Likewise, if there are (say) 2 kids in the family and kid A needs to be at school by 8 am and so kids A and B need to be in the car buckled in by 7:50, it is “coercive” to insist they do so. If kid A is late, he is late.
This is not “free spirit hippie” parenting. This is well beyond.