<p>cgm - I guess where we part company is I believe there IS a way to speak to this social issue properly in a yearbook, not showcasing, celebrating or glorifying, but as an examination of the times our children live in. And you, and most others, think this is impossible to do; that no matter the context, our children will always take the wrong message. Imho, that’s selling our teens short. </p>
<p>But it’s okay to disagree…I do hear where you are coming from.</p>
<p>did you know that many people had premarital sex during our founding fahters time…yes indeedy…and we had slavery, and women couldnt vote, and if you read your bible, you can beat your kids…no subjectivity if you use the bible as the basis of governemnt…haven’t read anything that funny or absurd in a long time</p>
<p>r oyu saying this to get our goat again like you did with eating out?</p>
<p>according to some people reading of the bible, women can['t teach men…but to think that the bible is not subjective in its reading is laughable</p>
<p>REL - I guess I’m in the 20% of Christian Americans who would rather focus on the plank in my own eye, than the speck in yours.</p>
<p>this is not a general problem
your highschool just sucks.</p>
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<p>ldmom~</p>
<p>I agree with you here, and I <em>certainly</em> don’t want the school district teaching MY kids morals, based on the values it has shown. 
But, that is precisely WHY I strayed FAR from that particular argument in my editorial and emphasized my point using the irrefutable evidence that teen pregnancy adversely impacts EDUCATIONAL achievement. Because school districts exist first and foremost as promoters of ACADEMIC development, featuring something that negatively impacts that development <em>IS</em> irresponsible, regardless of one’s standing on the moral issue.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>
Actually, this is pretty much why I posted this…I wanted to see whether or not this was atypical for yearbook conent. ~berurah</p>
<p>berurah - Again, it’s all about angles. I’m not in anyway stating I know whether or not what appeared in your daughters’ yearbook was appropriate. I’m just saying the topic can be presented properly…the right context is possible. And kids can take away an appropriate message.</p>
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<p>You see, CGM, I do believe that you don’t like when your opinion is challenged. Yes, indeedy. When someone challenges your opinion, you think of that as “getting on your goat” From what I can tell, you are a liberal. Fine, great! I am a conservative; if you tell me that the conservatives are complete idiots, I certainly am not going to say that you are “getting on my goat” Keep an open, please, I merely state the facts, KWIM?</p>
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<p>In English, please. Cut the symbolism and clever adages, por favor. Seriously, though, what do you mean by plank in eye"?</p>
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<p>Please don’t take the Bible out of context, please. Beating children? No, the Bible tells us to take a firm hand on children to discipline. Spanking, anyone?</p>
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<p>Washington would have disagreed with you, he and I both believe in a Bible based government. “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.” -George Washington You know, may be our constitution and government were based upon the Bible. Anyone?</p>
<p>Our school newspaper has done a variety of articles on delicate subjects such as sexual behavior and drinking (under pseudonyms…I have no idea where every time they got all these students willing to speak even anonymously…wouldn’t you be worried people would recognize the circumstances or something? Anyway…). But these articles were usually presented in a way sort of like health class would be, not like “look, people are pregnant at our school! Let’s clap”…it was more like “while I wouldn’t trade my child for anything, if I could do everything over again, I would have made better decisions and you should to.” No one had an issue with these articles as far as I know. </p>
<p>It seems really akward to have yearbook pages just showing the pregnant girls, I mean…I could understand in the school paper for an actual article profiling a teen mother to make a point, but the yearbook doesn’t really seem to be an appropriate place for that. It just seems odd to me. </p>
<p>The high school that cut out the squares in the yearbook, I mean, I guess they felt they had to. Probably like 99% of the kids wouldn’t have seen the picture or thought anything of it (surely some advisor must look over it before it’s printed…they obviously missed it), so it seems a bit excessive to me but if they want to do all that work, hey go ahead. It probably wasn’t greatly missed and ironically the hole in the page plus the accompanying media really called more attention to it and will make it more memorable and noticable than it ever would have been most likely. But at least they have a good story about the hole in their yearbook.</p>
<p>REL;;; see when you say the bible will not be treated subjectively, you do not see that it IS, all the time, some people, yes, Christians, have used the words about sparing not the rod and have beat their children…yes, they claim it was okay cause the bible said so…taking it out of context…the words in the bible are taken out of context all the time</p>
<p>you have your baptist, lutherans, born agains, fundamentalist, unity, christ scientists, catholics, mormans, pentacostalsm quakers, jehovahs witnesses, calvinists, ( I am one of te above)…then you have your David Koreshs and that ilk…all of which base their teachings and practices on the Bible…Unity interpretation and practice is very different from Baptist, but its from the same book</p>
<p>I think you must just trying to get a rise out of people by saying the Bible would be used objectvely…still gives me a good giggle</p>
<p>“In English, please. Cut the symbolism and clever adages, por favor. Seriously, though, what do you mean by plank in eye”?</p>
<h2>“Washington would have disagreed with you, he and I both believe in a Bible based government. “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.” -George Washington You know, may be our constitution and government were based upon the Bible. Anyone?”</h2>
<p>Robert E. Lee, </p>
<p>That symbolism and clever adage:</p>
<p>Matthew
Chapter 7 verses 1-5</p>
<p>1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.</p>
<p>and symoblism…rel…please the bible is RIFE with it…just keep it coming, spare not the rod, the rod is a weapon, a stick, yet you call it spanking, so who is using symbolism…hmmmm</p>
<p>For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You will beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell."…what context am I missing, or is the rod a SYMBOL for you…but you see, some people don’t see the rod as a symbol they see the bible to be read literally…yep indeedy</p>
<p>sorry for the going off topic, but this was just to hard to resist</p>
<p>Thanks, idmom. Surely, I appreciate your response. I now understand. Thank-you!</p>
<p>CGM, I realize that the Bible has symbolism. I just did not understand idmoms response. </p>
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<p>That is me. I read the Bible with the presupposed knowledge that the Bible uses symbolism. I really don’t see what you are arguing. I never said that the Bible did not have symbolism. </p>
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<p>Well, those people who take the Word out of context are doing an injustice. In fact, they are manipulating the words of my Saviour to their benefit. That is injust. Literal translation is the preferred method, but as you said, some of the Bible is written in symbolism. But understanding the symbolism is not necessarily taking the Word out of context. The rod could be translated in many ways, but we all know without question that the verse implies disciplinary action for our children.</p>
<p>And all I can say is, “WOW!!!”</p>
<p>I <em>think</em> I see where the problem is coming from now.</p>
<p>As I mentioned earlier, another editorial came out in the city newspaper today agreeing fully with my stance. That, combined with the incredible mount of feedback I’ve received for my editorial, prompted me to call the superintendent and initiate a discussion of this matter.</p>
<p>The conversation was lengthy and tedious, but the highlights were:</p>
<p>1.) The <em>ONLY</em> action that has been taken so far by the district has been to consult its attorney to find out what the Kansas statutes had to say regarding who was responsible for the content included in h.s. publications.</p>
<p>2.) According to the superintendent, Kansas statutes say that the students can publish ANYTHING in the school yearbook or newspaper that they see fit to publish, with NO sponsor approval.</p>
<p>3.) He kept stressing that he wants this incident to “be a learning experience for all concerned.” <strong><em>ROFLMAO</em></strong> I will say, though, that this HAS been a learning experience for ME, and what I have learned has been that NO ONE is minding the store in our school district and that the people who are running this district are extremely out of touch with the patrons of the district and the taxpayers in general.</p>
<p>4.) Our superintendent’s and my philosophies regarding dealing with young people are diametrically opposed. He feels that students are on a COMPLETELY equal footing with any and all adults, including teachers, sponsors, and parents and that they should be given equal say in decisions. I, on the other hand, feel that a 30+ year age difference between an adult and and “adult-in-training” bestows certain rights <em>and responsibilities</em> on the adult, and that even older h.s. students NEED GUIDANCE from an experienced mentor/adult/sponsor/teacher/parent.</p>
<p>5.) Supposedly, he is going to make sure the yearbook staff sees the critcisms leveled against the inclusion of the questionable content and “let them decide” what they want to do about it. :mad:</p>
<p>At least the conversation clarified one thing for me…I am more determined than ever to pursue this and not just let it drop. The essentially unyielding manner of the superintendent combined with the feedback I’ve personally received lets me know that this IS a battle worth fighting.</p>
<p>I didn’t mention this before, but my attention was called to this situation initially by some STUDENTS who were very displeased with the coverage. I typically do not sit down with my kids’ yearbooks the minute they receive them. <em>lol</em> So, the adults are not the ONLY ones who resent this coverage.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>B:</p>
<p>Post #64 hit the nail on the head, IMO. When I read your OP, my first thought was, “oh dear, are there no other high schools in the area where you could send your kids?” Cross boundaries to another town’s school or use a friend’s address to get a different school assignment? </p>
<p>I wouldn’t mind controversial topics discussed in the school newspaper, but the yearbook is a permanent record of the school and a keepsake for the students. It should not be left to teenagers to throw it together any way they please. The flippant celebration of knocked up classmates, while I’m sure the real accomplishments of other students went totally ignored, is very dismaying. You were right to protest and I really admire your courage in doing battle in public with your school district. I hope you have more parents on your side and can put some pressure on the school to change the yearbook advisor.</p>
<p>To answer your specific question, this kind of thing is by no means widespread or acceptable in every school district. The PTSA here would blow several gaskets if such a thing appeared in our HS yearbook. I think there was once a photo of a too-close PDA and parents complained that it was inappropriate to put in the yearbook. Sometimes I think that our school is caught in a Happy Days time warp. A recent policy decision by the school administration bans “freak dancing” at the school dances. Students who don’t comply are warned and then asked to leave (or parents are called to pick them up.) Also, the policy against drinking before or at a school function is strictly enforced. Last year, when three starting football players – including the senior quarterback – were determined to have been drinking before arriving at the Homecoming dance, they were all dropped from the team even though the season had just started. This was the coaches’ own policy and even the most ardent football fans were more ticked at the kids for not thinking about their season and their teammates than they were at administrators for enforcing the rules. </p>
<p>BTW, this is not a parochial or private HS. This is a 3,000-student suburban middle-to-upper-middle class in sports-addicted So Cal. It’s also a small district, with only one comprehensive high school and one alternative high school. I believe that although they are not required to do so, any teens who become pregnant end up going to the alternative high because there is a child care program and a parenting class there. </p>
<p>Good luck in your fight to bring some common sense to your HS.</p>
<p>In my son’s private school (graduating class of 70) if there has been a pregnancy (and I’m sure there HAS been) it’s been discretely terminated before anyone knows the details.</p>
<p>I remember in 1973 middle school (13 /14 yo’s) two classmates became pregnant. They gave birth, kept their children and went on to become women of merit in the community. I have to say that the children of those unions did not do well in any measured capacity (both are perpetual delinquents, off and on incarcerated). So it may be that the mother is able to “move on” but the children are not. That is not a fair start in life IMO.</p>
<p>jazzy~</p>
<p>I am extremely impressed with your high school!!! WOW!! I am <em>SO</em> glad that you posted because our districts have some things in common (we have ONE fairly large (2200 student) high school and one alternative h.s. here also), and this lets me know that I am <strong>NOT</strong> asking the impossible or the unreasonable. </p>
<p>I am particularly impressed with your football coach’s handling of the drinking incident. GOOD LORD, an ACTUAL adult stepping up to DO THE RIGHT THING??? We are <em>SO</em> not used to that here. In fact, several years ago, there was an incident in which a h.s. football player raped a classmate. The girl pressed charges, but since she was reticent to come forward right at the time it happened, it was enough after the fact that proving the rape would have been difficult. </p>
<p>Our school district had a policy that if a student was convicted of a felony <em>or</em> misdemeanor crime, s/he would no longer be eligible to compete in sporting events. The charge was eventually pled down to a misdemeanor, after which our school board met in special closed session to REWRITE the rules to state that the player would be ineligible ONLY IF he was convicted of a FELONY CHARGE. Thus, he was able to perserve his eligibility. Meanwhile, he and his friends harassed the girl <em>SO</em> badly that she ended up leaving the school. THAT is how OUR district handles incidents with the football team. (In fact, all varsity players are given HUGE numbers to place on the back winddows of their cars so that the local police will know to leave them alone and only go after the honor students… <em>lol</em>).</p>
<p>One thing that has absolutley FASCINATED me in the past couple of weeks has been the rather stark (and pathetically AMUSING) difference between what goes on at the h.s. and what goes on elsewhere in the district. I have five kids left in this district (oldest S is in college)—a senior, a sophomore, a 7th grader, a 6th grader, and a 3rd grader.</p>
<p>At the sixth grade, there is so much fuss over the dress code that I am FLABBERGASTED. They have basically banned EVERYTHING in my daughter’s wardrobe! No spaghetti straps, no shorts at a reasonable length, no short skirts (including skorts!), no tank tops with straps less than “three fingers’ width.” I am an incredible sale shopper (have to be with six kids), and I had taken care to get her REALLY cute and fashionable clothing at ROCK bottom prices for her move over to the sixth grade. She is PETRIFIED to get dressed in the mornings!! This morning, the teacher called up “all girls who are wearing shorts and skirts” to line up like convicts and be “examined” for propriety. :eek:</p>
<p>Now, I am just <strong><em>ROLLIN’</em></strong> here trying to reconcile this egregious incongruity. We’re THAT worried about tank tops on sixth grade girls, many of whom have NO breasts yet, and yet, in the h.s., it is perfectly FINE to feature pregnant 14-year-olds in the yearbook? What gives!!?? 
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<p>Anyway, I really appreciated your post and am thinking about sharing it (sans ANY information about your username or the name of this site, just the content of the text itself) with our superintendent. THAT’S the way a school district SHOULD be run!</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>A lot that goes on in public schools disgusts me, and I’m glad to be grinding through my final year in high school. I do feel sorry for my younger brothers who will likely go through the same, if not worse, madness that runs rampent in our school.</p>
<p>The pregnancy issue is luckily not a problem for us, as the pregnant girls are all considered stupid, rather than praised. Not to say that they should be looked down on, but their decisions up to that point can’t have been well thought out.</p>
<p>Dress code is a constant problem, as a guy I haven’t had any issues as of yet, since I don’t dress “gangster”; however, I get to enjoy the antics of girls hiding their clothing from the monitors running around trying to bust everyone.</p>
<p>In general, the rules are very oppressive and illogical, but I’ve long ago given up hope for any reformation of our school. All I can say is that <em>my</em> kids will never be attending any institution of sub-par learning. As Einstein said, “It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.”, or in this case, sanity rather than curiosity.</p>
<p>Berurah, our public school’s dress code sounds almost identical to yours with the exception that our middle schoolers wear uniforms. The high schoolers cannot wear skirts or shorts above the knee; no tank tops or halters unless worn under a hoodie or other shirt; no visible piercings except in the ears; no alcohol or tobacco messages or curse words on t-shirts; no head coverings without a doctor’s note (or for religious purposes); no sunglasses; no low, baggy pants on the guys (must be belted); no more than one inch of cleavage showing on the girls (but as one of our male teachers stated at a faculty meeting, “Who does the measuring?”!!!); no midriff exposure; etc. </p>
<p>I really don’t have a problem at all with the dress code rules because of what I see in other school districts and what I used to see in our school. Too many body parts being exposed really do impede a student’s academic concentration. We are strict with dress code rules and send students home to change or have them call for a change of clothing. They all know the rules well, and for the most part there are very few infractions. We want our students at school to learn instead of being there to “make a fashion statement.” If everyone follows the rules, it really is a “no brainer,” but it does take some getting used to when rules are abruptly changed in a district.</p>
<p>My daughter owns plenty of cute, short skirts and halter tops, but she knows that they are for her wearing outside school only. We just stock up on Old Navy essentials at the start of the school year, and that seems to keep her clothed fairly economically in conservative, school-appropriate garb.</p>
<p>B – I am appalled at the superintendent. And people wonder what’s wrong with the young people of this country! In districts like yours, it seems to be a case of “Lord of the Flies” and the kids are in charge. Knowing our conservative, “old-fashioned” value system, H and I decided long ago that we weren’t cut out to be public school parents. (No flames, please – this was just our choice) I don’t view myself as completely right-wing, but the idea that all decisions made by teenagers are equal to those of adults just astonishes me. How are they supposed to learn anything? Good luck – I think you’ll need it. But also, good for you for trying to make a difference.</p>