Home Improvement: Flooring

Parent Cafe
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<p>Why do people keep posting about colleges on a home improvement forum???</p>

<p>We’ve owned three 2-story homes that had tile floors on the second floor (first floor if you are English). All of them had at least some degree of grout line cracking or worse. In our current house the master bath is floored with 12-inch ceramic tiles. Right around the sink, which is, of course, the highest traffic area in the bathroom, four tiles have actually come loose from the floor, the grout cracked out long ago, and two of them are cracking into pieces. I think all three of these homes had plywood subfloors and not concrete panels (Hardi-Board).</p>

<p>I’ve seen a glass cloth or synthetic mesh at Home Depot that looks like it is designed to go between the subfloor and the tile. </p>

<p>I can’t lay a traditional mud bed under the tile because the adjacent flooring would be much too low. I don’t want to have to lay another 3/4" layer in the whole house to make up for a thick tile layer, which would require replacing all the flooring on the second story, and probably trip every single person coming up the stairs.</p>

<p>So, here are my questions:</p>

<li><p>Has anyone had a tile floor last a long time on the second floor of a stick-built house without a mud bed?</p></li>
<li><p>Has any tried any anti-cracking product that worked?</p></li>
<li><p>Would pulling up the sub-floor and adding more blocking between the joists do anything to help?</p></li>
<li><p>Does anyone have any suggestions for a bathroom other than vinyl or tile? I’m somewhat reluctant to expose wood to the water and humidity in the bath.</p></li>
<li><p>It’s definitely non-traditional, but I do have a roll of 6-ounce fiberglass cloth left over from my last boat project. I wonder if I laid that under new tile if that would prevent grout and tile cracking?</p></li>
<li><p>Help?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>EDITED: I have to put in a new floor since so many tiles are cracking into bits.</p>

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<p>The issues in new construction tend to be shrinkage and settling, which often result in tile cracking.</p>

<p>In remodel situations, the culprits are usually loose or inadequate subfloor, improper adhesives or insufficient adhesive.</p>

<p>I normally remove all previous flooring to the subfloor. If damaged, or poorly installed, the subfloor will be replaced. If you need blocking, by all means add it. I try and go with 3/4 plywood and 1/2 cement board. Everything is screwed, not nailed.</p>

<p>There are isolation membranes, but I’ve never had the need to use them.</p>

<p>For adhesive, I use a latex fortified thinset mortar, applied with the appropriate sized notched trowel, never a tile mastic for floor work.</p>

<p>I’ve installed a multitude of tile floors, and have yet to have any issues with this methodology.</p>

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<p>Pergo (or Pergo type laminate) is a posibility. I have it in my kitchen and after fifteen years it looks as if we just put in in yesterday. It has withstood all the water around the sink and dishwasher very, very well. It comes in stone designs as well as wood designs. But perhap it is not authentic enough for you.</p>

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<p>WashDad,</p>

<p>how much lower would the adjacent floors be if you go the mud-bed route? If not more than, say, 3/4 inch, installing a threshold to make the transition may work. We had to do that in one door way of our older home “with character,” and I was surprised how well it worked. It wasn’t even noticeable</p>

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<p>Also, any one had any luck with loose tiles being succesfully repaired- also 12" travertine stone on the second floor!</p>

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<p>I had loose slate tiles on outside porch reset and they did fine.</p>

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<p>My only experience with tile on a plywood subfloor was #1- cracks happen, and #2 - the little wax ring under the toilet might not seat right with the thickness of tile underneath. Watch out for small long-term leaks. #3 - the water in the big pretty brass finial of the dining room chandelier can indeed be coming from water that has followed the joist from leak in #2. #4 - it will overflow at the worst possible moment.</p>

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<p>A good friend used cork on a BR floor about 10 years ago and it still looks good.</p>

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<p>In a bathroom I wouldn’t use anything but tile or stone. I’m guessing your floor isn’t stiff enough. If you want to start from scratch you could try a new subfloor. I generally don’t call for mudbed except in showers. I call for same thinset. The isolation membranes are definitely a possiblity. The bathrooms in our house appear to date from the 1950s. (Bubble gum pink walls, black and white mosaic floors). They look like pretty good. Subfloors are 3/4’ diagonal planking.</p>

<p>If you want contractor advice unmixed with college advice I like the breaktime area of Fine Homebuilding magazine’s website. :)</p>

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<p>The problem is that plywood flexes - tile does not. You really need to pull up the tile and lay down a layer of hardiboard or equivalent cement board glued and screwed to plywood, then a layer of thinset. You don’t need a whole mud layer. If you don’t want tile, you could pull up the tile and lay snap-in-place Pergo or its equivalent. First comes the vaporbarrier/foam layer stuff - Pergo flexes like the plywood, so some movement would be okay. Just a caution about the wax seal around the toilet - MOVEMENT is NOT good here. We put pergo over concrete in our downstairs bathroom, and somehow the wax ring did not seal well or there was too much movement. Much yukkyness several months down the line - we had to replace pergo with tile. We have poured-in-place concrete mixed with faswall (woodchips impregnated with clay) on our upstairs floors. Our eccentric green builder claimed that these would be just fine on a plywood subfloor. They aren’t, and our upstairs bedroom and hall floors have huge cracks that run through them - 1/2" cracks that I put caulk in. It looks awful, but strangely enough, some people like our floors… go figure. Moral being, lay your tile on cement board, not ply!</p>

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<p>Can Pergo be used on stairs? I seem to remember that one flooring company advised against doing this-just don’t remember the reason why? Anyone have any experience with using Pergo on stairs?</p>

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<p>Why would you want to put Pergo on stairs? Stairs treads are usually one solid piece of wood.</p>

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<p>Hmm… the toilet doesn’t leak now, maybe I won’t ever touch the floor.</p>

<p>Ah, just kidding. Thanks for all the suggestions. Keep 'em coming.</p>

<p>Since I’m probably going to replace the vanity and poorly-laid tile counter, it would probably be a good time to mess with the subfloor. I can just see this leading to a new shower enclosure, too. Jeez, a couple of tiles come loose and now I’m into a major bathroom remodel.</p>

<p>In our guest bathroom the previous owner put an extension on a new counter that was so close to the toilet that I had to cut the countertop extension off to get the top off the toilet to replace a $2 flapper. Of course, this revealed that the wall paper behind the vanity didn’t go behind the counter, so there was a strip of naked dry wall, the grout on the edge of the counter is cracked, and I’m in the middle of a remodel of the guest bath. I’m thinking of moving into an apartment…</p>

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<p>anxiousmom pegged it: it’s all about movement and flexing when it comes to cracks; the loose tiles are in all probability insufficient adhesive or poor tile to adhesive contact (failure to properly “set tile” in the wet mortar.</p>

<p>I’ve seen many corners cut by some contractors and unknowledgeable do it yourselfers when it comes to tile. There are a number of issues… previous water damage to subfloor not repaired or repaired improperly, undersized or weak floor joists (mainly in older homes, and some caused by beaverlike plumbers routing pipes poorly), loose/poorly nailed subfloors or uneven subfloors. </p>

<p>Notorious spots for water damage are the tub corners, area around the toilet, and often under the vanity/sink, usually caused by minor water issues uncorrected over time.</p>

<p>All of this has to be corrected and in sound condition prior to laying tile. Hiding it just doesn’t cut it. Depending on your construction and what the adjoining floor is, you may well have enough depth for a mud bed. As mentioned, properly planned and installed thresholds will ease the transition between floor heigths. Unless you’re an experienced, decent diy mason, I would not try laying a mud bed. A bit tricky to achieve proper consistency, height and smoothness. </p>

<p>For plywood subfloors with cement board overlays, the trick is good sound joists with no or minimal bounce. Add cats and nailers to stiffen if need be.
Screw the plywood, don’t nail. Offset seams. Walk the floor… there should be no bounce, soft spots or squeaks. If there are, correct them. Only then apply the cement board. I prefer setting the cement board in thinset to the plywood and screwing it down. Any blowouts or bad joints should be filled with thinset; joints should be meshtaped and thinsetted, and all screw heads filled. There should be no loose screws or high heads.</p>

<p>As long as your floor is now smooth, doesn’t move and in the same plane (doesn’t have to be level, as that’s often impossible in older homes) the actual tile work is a piece of cake.</p>

<p>For grouts, you may want to try the epoxies. They are extremely crack resistant, will not stain or change color. They are expensive, and a bear to work with. They set very fast, and you must clean as you go. If you have no or limited experience grouting, DO NOT try the epoxy, you’ll have a very expensive disaster. I prefer to use them in small areas (backsplashes, countertops, small floor areas) because of the difficulties in working with them.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>There’s a pretty funny article about epoxy grout in this month’s Fine Homebuilding magazine. (It’s their annual kitchen and bath issue.)</p>

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<p>Don’t want the dust and mess that putting hardwood on stairs could cause. These are stairs leading to a media room and office and would only want them at the hall entrance and stairs. Currently, carpeted and as it is a heavy traffic area, would like a better alternative like Pergo, since I assume it would involve minimal installation.</p>

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<p>We redid our stairs with solid oak. Looks great and is easy to clean. The drawbacks are: very loud and the dog can’t run up the stairs anymore now that the carpet isn’t there for traction.</p>

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<p>What about mess/dust, etc during installation? This is a finished room of the house that the original builder chose to put carpet instead of any type of hardwood, which I agree, is much easier to clean.</p>

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<p>Sobering advice. I actually have lots of epoxy experience in boat building, but I’ve never used it on tiles. If I fix a crack in your boat’s hull will you come over and grout my tile?</p>

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<p>WashDad- </p>

<p>My last experience with a boat was the one I brought home with the sign that said “free”.</p>

<p>They lied.</p>