Honors classes for an average student.

Parent Cafe
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<p>In just a couple months my son will be picking his classes for high school, and I’d love your thoughts. I want to say that as we make that decision, there will be many factors to take into account, and the impact on college admissions is just one factor, but I’m curious how that particular factor plays out.</p>

<p>For a hard working student of average intellect with good family support, who enjoys a wide range of extracurriculars but isn’t generally a leader or a star in any of them, which of these plans would likely result in the nicest array of choices at admissions time.</p>

<p>1) A mix of A’s and B’s in “on level classes”, maybe a 3.7 W/UWGPA, with a couple sports, some involvement in the arts, some volunteering, maybe a part time job. . . </p>

<p>2) A mix of B’s and C’s in “honors” classes, with some A’s in the arts and PE mixed in. GPA around 3.2 UW, 3.7 W, with extra curriculars as above.</p>

<p>3) A mix of A’s and B’s in Honors, AP and IB classes, due to intensive tutoring, summer school courses, etc . . . and drastically reduced extracurriculars to allow time for intensive study. (Note: even if all of you tell me this is the best choice, I probably won’t do it because I think he needs more balance, but I’m putting it here anyway).</p>

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<p>Does he have any particularly strong interests? Some students take honors courses in some subjects, but not others.</p>

<p>Do his current teachers have any recommendations for whether he should take honors courses in each subject?</p>

<p>However, a student capable of getting a 3.7 GPA in regular courses is way above average, unless the school has extremely high grade inflation.</p>

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<p>Does your school allow you to make these decisions entirely on your own? My school (when I was a kid) and my childrens’ schools take care of most such placement on their own, at best offering a couple of options.</p>

<p>Plus, is there a reason you cannot adjust as you go? It might not hurt to start in some honors classes and see how he handles it - you can always drop back to “regular” classes next year if it is too much of a struggle. I switched between regular and honors classes several times in high school.</p>

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<p>Does it have to be all or nothing? Can he take regular classes in his weaker subjects and take honors classes in his stronger subjects? I would NOT go with plan C. Extensive tutoring is a great way to burn a kid out and to land him in a college where he really isn’t capable of doing well. Dropping the EC’s will harm him more than not taking some honors courses.</p>

<p>Also, how do you know he will get those grades. Middle school and high school are quite different. At our school they suggest that kids start in the honors classes and if they are too difficult, move down to the regular classes. It’s a much easier transition doing it that way.</p>

<p>Really though, the “on-level” classes should be fine because he would then be looking at “on-level” colleges. Start looking at this realistically. He doesn’t need to go to Harvard to get a job and getting A’s and B’s in “on-level” classes will get him into 90% of the schools around the country.</p>

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<p>Great post, OP!! My brain has been mulling over the very same dilemma for my own D. I agree that plan 3 is the least attractive since it would not be optimal for a student’s happiness. In my D’s case, she’d have no social life if she didn’t keep her EC’s, since her average/below average intellect means all remaining time would be required for study regardless of whether she chose 1 or 2. And that brings me to another point.</p>

<p>My sense is that the homework time oten might be almost the same for paths 1 and 2 in our district. 1 requires more time to do the longer readings, write the more complicated papers, and figure out the harder problems. And yes, sometimes there is just more work because the pace is faster and the level is higher. But the lower courses in our district often give more busy work projects which are equally time-consuming and much less valuable. That said, I know my D can get a good grade on a poster for the typical freshman physical science course, but almost definitely wouldn’t score an A on a test in the “Honors College Physics” the top kids take.</p>

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<p>When my oldest was in 8th grade, parents in the high school said if you don’t push for all honors, it will greatly reduce college options. What we found out, once it came time to apply for college, is that our HS does not weight honors classes individually. Only the total GPA was weighted for honors and AP. What that meant in practice is that the extra weight for honors was useless. That struggle for a C in honors freshman physics resulted in a 2.0 on the transcript, nothing more. A 4.0 in CP class (which would have been doable, with much less stress) would have been better.</p>

<p>My youngest is a sophomore and is taking honors and AP in subjects he is good in - math and science - and CP English, where he has a 99 currently. More importantly, he’s happy.</p>

<p>It is also not a life sentence. My son was moved from CP to honors history this year because he did so well in CP last year. The colleges will tell you they look at “rigor” of coursework, but rigor alone does not make up for a low GPA. Let your child take the courses at his level where he can do well and build competence.</p>

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<p>What is the atmosphere like in the honors classes vs. non-honors?</p>

<p>At some schools, non-honors is a zoo, where teachers have to spend more time on disciplinary issues than they can spend on teaching. This occurs because non-honors classes are where kids who hate school and don’t want to be there end up.</p>

<p>Therefore, it might actually be easier to learn in honors classes.</p>

<p>The way honors and non-honors classes are graded is significant, too. In the middle of high school, my son decided that he no longer wanted to take honors science classes, which required lengthy projects, because he was not interested in science. So he dropped down into regular science classes. His grades in science went DOWN. The reason: in non-honors classes, much more weight was given to homework, which he sometimes completed carelessly or not at all. He actually got Cs in science some marking periods despite getting As on the tests because of the non-honors grading policy.</p>

<p>On the other hand, there are situations in which you don’t want to be in honors. For example, at my son’s high school, the honors Spanish classes were dominated by heritage speakers. Kids with no background in Spanish outside of school could not keep up. They ended up taking the regular Spanish classes, even if they took honors-level classes in everything else.</p>

<p>Much depends on the individual school and the individual subject, as you can see.</p>

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<p>What are your goals for him for college?</p>

<p>A 3.7W is fine for many if not most state flagships. If you are aiming for a top private, 3.7W may not cut it.</p>

<p>Some schools look at rigor of schedules, at some it is less important.</p>

<p>

This is the best strategy - maximize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses.</p>

<p>Example - DD took Honors Physics, was really struggling, and hated the class. We let her drop to College Physics (the lowest), and the class was an order of magnitude easier. What would have been a C at best in HP became an A in regular physics.</p>

<p>On the other hand, she did fine in AP Bio.</p>

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<p>The problem with how our high school operates is that you aren’t as free to pick and choose. You’re either an honors kid or a non honors kid, and that is especially the case within a subject area. You couldn’t take AP Bio as a junior or senior (which my D could likely handle just fine) if you hadn’t taken the honors science classes in your first two years and done well. So D couldn’t opt out of honors physics freshman year (because it’s heavy on math and problem solving which she struggles with) but then later take AP Bio (more memorization oriented so OK for her.) Similarly, if she hadn’t taken AP calculus as a junior, she wouldn’t get accepted into AP Stat. as a senior, even though she could probably handle the latter but not the former.</p>

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<p>Be realistic about what your child wants and can handle. Colleges recalculate GPA using core classes and unweighted scores. This can really hurt some students. </p>

<p>I cannot agree strongly enough, though, that you need to see what classes are like at your particular school before making choices. Some schools have 4 levels; some only have two - regular and Honors/AP. I’ve taught both, and would not put my child in regular classes. They are overcrowded (42 students or more) and I’ve taught regular classes where over one half of the students were on a 504 or IEP, and I teach at a nationally-ranked school.</p>

<p>Go and sit in on classes and talk to the teachers and students. What I tell students is that, yes, there is a bit more work and we move faster in higher level courses, but it is really a difference in how we are able to talk about the material. It isn’t harder, it is different. This isn’t always the case, though. Often, the difference is teacher-dependent.</p>

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<p>The whole attitude of “if you don’t take honors, it will greatly reduce college options” – I need to know if that’s really true. Or is it just true for the top colleges? It seems crazy that you need all or almost all honors classes to get into a good college. And I agree that what honors means at different schools can vary greatly. Even within a school, it can vary. We’ve found out that the different levels of Biology are virtually the same. However, the different levels of English are very different, and my daughter with a 92 in English last year was strongly dissuaded from opting for Honors English this year. They said there was a huge difference and they wouldn’t recommend moving up unless you had an average in the high 90s. </p>

<p>It also depends on your son. Will he be okay with classes where he struggles a bit and doesn’t get the best grade even with his best effort? What kind of college is he interested in and will honors/AP matter to those schools?</p>

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<p>I think that in GENERAL it’s better to start off in the more difficult classes. If the kid can’t hack it, let him drop back. At most high schools, it’s MUCH easier to drop back a level in 10th grade if a kid is overwhelmed than it is to go up a level. Moreover, 9th grade grades are much less important for college than are 10th grade grades. (So, if grades are likely to drop if you go UP a level, that will hurt in college admissions.)</p>

<p>A caveat is that it depends on the child. Some kids will be really devastated emotionally if they feel as if they have “failed” when they have to come down a level. </p>

<p>Do remember that this is about your kid’s high school education and not just college admissions. So, try to give him the most rigorous academic experience that he can handle well with some ECs and social life.</p>

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<p>My older son got into Harvard taking regular (not AP not honors English as a senior, though he’d been in honors English in 10th and 11th - our school doesn’t believe in honors for 9th grade level courses.) My younger son followed in his footsteps also opting for an English elective as a senior. My take home lesson is that a strong A in non-honors will be viewed as equivalent to a B/B+ in honors. Or at least that it won’t be an automatic black mark. My kids weren’t slouches the older one had nine APs and a post Calc math course, my younger son had 7 APs, I think.</p>

<p>Assuming you can take a mix, your child should take honors classes when that gives him the outstanding teacher or when the subject matter is what he enjoys and does well at.</p>

<p>In my experience it’s pretty hard to predict grades. My younger son is not much of a science guy, and had gotten a B in the regular course, but he excelled at AP Biology getting an A in the course and a 5 on the exam.</p>

<p>Jonri, is correct too, that it’s hard to move up if you need to. Due to a scheduling problem younger son didn’t take honors math sophomore year and it meant he was playing catch up his junior year in honors pre-calc.</p>

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<p>OP:</p>

<p>You should be getting some sort of direction from your child’s 8th grade teachers. Every child is different.</p>

<p>If your school allows a student to take some regular classes and some honors, that would be the best, imo.</p>

<p>My S1 took straight honors classes across the board and got A’s. My S2, currently a h.s. Junior, took 3 honors freshman and sophomore years, and now as a junior is taking two. He knows he wants engineering/technical in college, so he takes honors level in Math & Science only.</p>

<p>Find out by talking to the 8th grade teachers where he should be placed. Also, talk to your S and find out which subjects he’s most comfortable in where he could take honors…btw, what makes you think he’ll get B’s and C’s in those honors classes? He could do better than you think!!</p>

<p>I agree with whoever said to start off in honors in the classes that he could handle…it gives them a sense of accomplishment being in a few honors classes…and it’s good practice for them to handle the workload.</p>

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<p>I would not drastically reduce ECs. We are not talking about Grad. student, This kid is in HS. He will not have a chance to have fun later on in his life. It is not a good idea study 24/7 even in UG. got to get involved, have vaious activities, job, Greek if there is desire, trips abroad, minor(s), possbily sport, develop as a person, not just stay in your room and study, study…</p>

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<p>^^^This child will be a high school freshman, not college. Study abroad, greek life, etc. happens in college.</p>

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<p>Thanks guys, this is really helpful. Of course I made up the grades. I picked the numbers based on how he’s done so far, because I thought it would be helpful to have grades to base things on. It’s quite possible that he’ll get lower grades, but I suspect from what I’ve seen the general idea that, for my kid, honors will translate into a lower GPA than on level.</p>

<p>It seems like the consensus is it makes sense to start in honors and move down, rather than starting low and moving up. It also may make sense to select a blend, in his case this would mean honors social studies, probably honors English and math, and likely on level science and foreign language. Our school system seems to bend over backwards to accomodate parent wishes, so while they do make suggestions I feel like we’ll have a lot of say. </p>

<p>Why do I describe him as “average”, when in fact he gets pretty good grades? I think that’s a good question. I read here a lot, where people describe their B student as a “bright underachiever”. They talk about kids being pulled down by low homework grades or lackadaisical approaches to academic tasks. This is not my son’s situation. My kid is incredibly hard working, and strategic about using the resources that he has. For example, he started off the school year this year with struggles in Honors English. During the first month of the year he failed 3 tests in a row. As of the midpoint in the quarter his grade sat right on the line between a D and an E. What did he do? He set up tutoring appointments before and after school with his teacher, asked me to find him some online resources and then used them until he mastered them, and spent hours with me reviewing the concepts he didn’t get. He retook all 3 tests, and on two of them retook them twice. After all that hard work, he ended up with 2 B’s and an A. I’m incredibly proud of his attitude and his approach to task, but I also realize that there are plenty of kids in his class who got A’s and B’s on the first tests wtih far less effort.</p>

<p>Finally, someone asked what are my goals for him for college? That he love it as much as I did. That he can find a place where he can explore different things and discover a passion that he can build a life around. That he feel like he has an array of options to choose from. I don’t care whether that place is ranked 10th or 200th, but I do care that he feels like he chose it. I also see that it frustrates him when others aren’t serious about their studies, so I’d like a place where people value learning. </p>

<p>When I look at him as a learner, I wonder if a smaller setting would suit him better. He learns best when teachers are accessible to students, and when the learning is hands on and engaging. In addition, he’s got a wide range of ECs he likes, and someplace where you don’t have to be a virtuoso to sing in the chorus, or where he has a shot of making the football team would likely make him happy. My brother, who I think of as quite similar as a learner, went to Bates and loved it. I think my son would love a similar small LAC experience, although Bates itself has changed a lot and might well be out of reach. I also think he might do well in an honors college program in a second tier state school, rather than being the middle of the pack in a flagship.</p>

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<p>My really good football player but academically average S took a mixture…Honors English,Social Studies and Science (except took regular Chem.) but regular math and foreign language. He took a variety of electives that were not honors. He also took two AP’s …Human Geography and Pysc. He did OK in the AP classes but didn’t pass the exams. He took two dual enrollment classes at the CC his senior yr. Wish he had done more of those since they transferred to his state u.</p>

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<p>I also agree that you can gain much information from talking to his current teachers. Most kids have a tendency to find classes like math and science “easier” or to find the reading/writing classes easier. Adjust the schedule to give the best opportunity to be challenged but not overwhelmed. Often this displays in 10th grade more than 9th grade. So i do agree that it’s OK to reach alittle in 9th and pull back if needed. Kids that have to push themselves just alittle develop the right skills to be successful in college in my opinion.</p>

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<p>Packmom, can I ask what kinds of grades your son had and what schools he chose between?</p>