<p>^</p>
<p>I think men are also “selective” in that they still want to have sex with the most attractive girl, but they don’t have to have sex with her EXCLUSIVELY. </p>
<p>But now we can’t do that since polygamy is no longer allowed, and sex without marriage often leads to lawsuits and financial complications. Men are quite selective now too. </p>
<p>Also how do you explain couples who doesn’t want kids?</p>
<p>And jealousy is a male biological reaction to protect against cuckoldry. We’re just a bunch of cavemen/women in suits.</p>
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</p>
<p>For people who don’t want kids, or gays, I don’t know what to say, biologically. </p>
<p>Humans are different in that we have a cerebral cortex. While I’m not saying that being gay is a conscious decision, it might be part of evolution of the mind. It might be a population check. I don’t know.</p>
<p>And while yes, men are selective, I don’t think they’re nearly as selective as women.</p>
<p>
As proven by statistics over and over again, it is almost always the woman who ends the relationship.</p>
<p>I think much of oppression is unconscious. Little boys and girls are raised with certain social expectations that are often based on sex. Additionally, sex roles are vigorously reinforced by advertising, teachers, playmates, media and other sources. This conditions both men and women to try to meet and also unconsciously coerce the opposite sex to conform to those expectations because it makes people more comfortable. When people don’t conform it (consciously or unconsciously) makes others uncomfortable because it is unexpected and therefore people don’t know how to respond or play their own roles.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, those traditional cultural expectations generally promote significant stereotyping and one of those stereotypes is that men are (in many ways) superior to women. Because boys unconsciously adopt this stereotype they unconsciously seek to keep women down to make themselves more comfortable. I think that’s why Betterthanyouare resorts to using derogatory terms like Feminazi, or Russell calls people “■■■■■■■■”, because their own positions are threatened by assertive women and this helps them discount and put down those that threaten them.</p>
<p>Do I think most men are consciously oppressing women? No. I think that society is SET UP to unconsciously oppress women in subtle (and sometimes blatent ways).</p>
<p>Do I think men are oppressed and limited by their societal norms and roles? Yes. </p>
<p>I just think that (to answer the question) the relative superiority of men in “traditional” society makes it easier, and incumbant upon, men to oppress women in order to keep their own position secure.</p>
<p>King of the hill as it were…</p>
<p>
I never understood this line of reasoning, men are not some kind of hive mind trying to work together to make their life as a whole better.</p>
<p>A man is an individual and thinks like an individual and the only threats to his position are individuals. As such he would feel just as threatened by assertive males as by assertive females, there is no gain to him whatsoever from pushing down females as a whole.</p>
<p>And another point, if females do the same work as males but for a lower cost, why haven’t anyone made a company which only hires females and can thus provide the same service as other companies but for a lower cost? </p>
<p>And if we had so many assertive women who have a hard time climbing the ladder due to being pushed down by men, why are most newly started companies founded by men? Wouldn’t these women go against the stream and just do their own thing instead if that was true, which would produce the reverse statistics since the best men are already vacumed up by the biggest companies?</p>
<p>Edit: Of course you could argue that the current society is built to make women less assertive but that means that we do not currently got a lot of assertive women ready to take men’s places and instead to provoke change we need to go down and talk with the kindergarden teachers on how they differentiate between the sexes.</p>
<p>And btw, my point is that affirmative action do not lead anywhere, as long as the core “problem” persists were women have different views on what constitutes a fulfilled life inequalities will never ever go away. If person A values money higher than person B, it is very likely person A will get richer than person B.</p>
<p>Klocken</p>
<p>What you quoted directly refers to INDIVIDUAL interactions between the posters mentioned and people they are debating on this forum, not generally. Although, they may indeed react similarly towards anyone who disagrees with them.</p>
<p>And I think you are ignoring the generalized impact of cultural conditioning that encourages men to take risks and women to pick safe careers.</p>
<p>I think we have made tremendous progress, I just think it is a bit ridiculous to say that women are not oppressed in our culture. Of course they are.</p>
<p>Sadly, I thought young men of this generation would be much more aware than has been demonstrated on this forum. I wonder why they feel so compelled to “prove” that women are not oppressed. It is a little ironic that MEN think they can be the aribiter of what oppresses WOMEN. </p>
<p>My two sons are both conscious feminists and unconsciously feminist. By this I mean that both their stated positions and their routine daily behavior are both feminist. The women who marry them will be very lucky indeed.</p>
<p>I think all that most of us are saying that even with complete equality, there would not be a 50:50 gender split in most careers. I certainly don’t deny that a lot of cultural pressure still exists that pidgeonhole men and women into certain fields.</p>
<p>I just edited that in before I saw your post, I am fully aware of all the arguments since this is not the first time I am arguing about this. </p>
<p>Also since I am living in the country with the highest sex equality in the world (Sweden) it might be different in the US from here, statistics shows that you are one of the worst industrialized countries on this point so the differences might be quite large.</p>
<p>
Please, listen to yourself, that is not an argument. You can talk like that if you are talking about the opponents points but not when you are talking about your own. The thing is that what you might think is obvious might not be obvious at all to someone else(Especially if they are not sharing your opinions on matters), and quite often what someone thinks is obvious just happens to also be wrong.</p>
<p>Edit: Also when you are talking about your sons are you talking about stuff like doing the dishes and looking over the baby? Because those things are just about equalized over here now, men take out almost as much parental leave as women etc. And if you narrow work descriptions down enough you get less than a percent difference on the wages between men and women.</p>
<p>Haha this thread is pretty funny…yeah I don’t think that any intelligent person is denying women are oppressed in our society. Basically i’m sticking with everything I wrote previously and think Son of Opie made a lot of good points.</p>
<p>Klockan, didn’t you say you’re from Scandinavia? They’re a lot better with gender equality/fathers taking parental leave/equal pay than they are in basically the rest of the world…things are different overseas.</p>
<p>^</p>
<p>Women are not any more oppressed by men than by their own female peers. </p>
<p>A lot of the so-called “oppressive” stereotypes are created by women themselves.</p>
<p>^ That’s pretty true. One of the biggest obstacles to feminism is other women. No united front.</p>
<p>"A lot of the so-called “oppressive” stereotypes are created by women themselves. "</p>
<p>yes, women chose to be homemakers and to be submissive to men :rolleyes:</p>
<p>and have separate bathrooms. most dudes are down with sharing</p>
<p>yes, women participate in their own oppression. this is not a revolutionary idea…sometimes we can be absolutely horrible and judgmental towards one another. but overall, we need to ask why women do this. so why? because we adopt the same patriarchal, male gaze that exists ALL around us. when a woman walks across a room, she not only perceives herself as walking but she also thinks about how others are perceiving her (ladies, don’t tell me you’ve never thought that). i’ve asked plenty of my male friends about whether they wonder how others see them when they walk across a room and you know what their answer is? “uhh…i dunno i guess not.” now for a metrosexual male or someone worried about his appearance i guess i can accept that he might, but for the majority of the male population i doubt it.</p>
<p>oh and by the way, i want to make it clear that i’m not a man-hater or anything like that. the word feminist does get a bad rap, but honestly most of my friends are guys. i don’t like drama :)</p>
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<p>My god woman you are such a tool and you don’t even realize it. Me and Russell have been making paragraphs worth of points and you can’t help but focus on two words we used, and COMPLETELY dismiss our underlying arguments, instead choosing to make personal insults (“I hope none of my sons turn out like you”) or accuse us of being “threatened”.</p>
<p>You are way above your head here, and are doing nothing but reading the talking points from the typical “woman warrior”. You are a hypocrite and sadly you will probably interpret this dissection of your hypocrisy as me being “threatened”.</p>
<p>I don’t understand how women are being “oppressed” in Engineering though. Here’s the way I see it:</p>
<p>From Kindergarten to 11th grade, we’re all required to take certain Math/Science classes. (going by NYS laws). We all learn the same things and take the same classes, sit side by side in classrooms, have both male and female teachers (and elementary school teachers are usually female), get the same opportunities. Then once college comes around, more men than women apply for Engineering spots. Women have special engineering scholarships just for us, we are treated as equals and encouraged to go into engineering even more than males (this was my experience in HS). So how are women being “oppressed” in Engineering? It seems like we simply have less of an interest and passion for the subject. 
Yet people keep denying this and insist we’re oppressed when the education system actually favors women for majors like Engineering, it’s easier for us to get in. </p>
<p>More women graduate HS and go to college these days, and we dominate certain fields too (Classics, Design, Education, Nursing, Art, etc). As far as education goes, I always felt equal, maybe even a little superior since female students were often praised as being better behaved, harder workers, etc. We are taught we are just as smart as men, just as capable, we are free to apply for the same spots. I don’t understand how women are oppressed when it comes to education in the U.S.</p>
<p>i read somewhere that men hold top positions in women-majority fields. and i’m glad that new york state is so progressive.</p>
<p>
A study published on msn discovered that women are less assertive because they are trained to not ask for the raise, not start that business, etc. </p>
<p>Assertive women (women that work hard and demand just compensation for that hard work) are often seen as mean. If a man were to ask for a a raise, he’d be seen as assertive. If a woman were to, she’d be seen as mean, demanding, threatening. And this is the point of view of both MALE and FEMALE bosses, in most cases.</p>
<p>Depressing, if you ask me.</p>