My DD is a HS freshman who is doing well – in the top two of her class of 65-70, with an average of 97 or 98, depending on the day, and she’s taking the most rigorous courses offered to her. She is aiming for either Salutatorian or Valedictorian.
Our school’s grading scale is 4.0 for 90 or above, and it is NOT academically rigorous. It offers only two years of Spanish (the only foreign language), and the few AP/Dual Enrollment classes (English Lit, US History, Pre-calculus, biology) are locked out for anyone below a junior. Sometimes those classes don’t even “make” because they don’t have enough students enrolling.
This is the ONLY school in our county, and moving her or us is NOT an option. We can’t afford private school or the tuition for a public school in another county, and in any event it would be near impossible to get her back and forth to another school.
When we plug in her numbers and class rank, along with guesstimates of her PSAT/SAT (she hasn’t taken either) at the 75th percentile, selective colleges look possible. But will they put her in the automatic “no” pile because of her school? And even if she did get into a more selective college, would she be academically prepared?
I think colleges definitely like to accept kids from different backgrounds and underrepresented geographic areas/school districts, so her situation can be a plus in that regard. Her standardized test scores and AP scores will be crucial though since the high school lacks rigor. No, she won’t be academically prepared compared to most of her classmates, and that is why the standardized test scores will be so important-admissions will have to believe she has the potential to play catch up.
In terms of admissions, your daughter will be fine I think. Many schools require, or strongly recommend three or four years of foreign language, but would make exceptions for someone who’s school didn’t offer that much. A few schools, places like MIT, Harvey Mudd, and CalTech require calculus, and this might be more of a hard requirement.
On the other hand, I would be very worried about being academically prepared. You don’t need AP classes or Dual enrollment to achieve this, but I doubt a school that only occasionally offers pre-calculus has rigorous courses in other subjects. One option is to look at online high schools, or at least take a few classes online, and there are some good programs out there. If you are lucky, you might be able to get your school to pay for this. Another option is to apply to a boarding school for junior and senior years. Many states have public boarding schools, and you might be surprised at the financial aid available at some of the top private boarding schools.
I have not noticed it being a problem for my D–she has yet to be rejected by any school academically and goes to a similar HS. I think you just have to be sure she applies to a variety of schools so that she will have options in the end.
The main issue may be being adequately prepared for college-level coursework. Where do the students go after high school and what do they do? Even in high schools with AP classes and kids going off to elite universities, students and parents have to be careful in choosing teachers. A high school that doesn’t have many students going onto college or going to just a few schools may not know what their students really need to be prepared. Then, you need to go outside the school for preparation. You can supplement the high school curriculum using on-line courses, summer program, community college courses, and other academic activities. The real goal is to have your child not feel overwhelmed when she goes to her freshman classes the first week at her chosen college. You want her to feel - okay, this is a definite step up but I can do this. I’m prepared to learn this.
Her work ethic and intelligence are going to give her everything she needs. I would not worry about the rest, both because it probably doesn’t matter and there’s not a thing you can do about it. She’ll be just fine. This could have been me, or my siblings/nieces/nephews: tiny school, no APs, two “tracks” (going to work, going to college). All of us got college degrees from great schools – two got full rides to top tier schools
My kids went to a high school that had a bit more rigor than described, but not much. Their SATs were (old school M and V) about 600 points above the school average. the school at the time only offered a few AP’s–none taken before junior year–and that was rare.
They got into a top LAC and an Ivy.
As far as being prepared–first of all, Slackermom’s notion of choosing teachers was not an option. I’d be surprised if it is, in more non-elite high schools. We didn’t do any kind of outside enrichment beyond a houseful of books, and intelligent dinner conversation.
D did have to play catch-up to stay with the majority of students who had more rigorous high school backgrounds, but in the end she surpassed most of them and ended up PBK.
S foundered in college calc after an A in HS calc, but I think that was more his mindset than the previous prep. Overall, at an Ivy, he was Dean’s List 5 out of 8 semesters.
So, overall, they were able to make up for any perceived lacks in the HS curriculum.
“When we plug in her numbers and class rank, along with guesstimates of her PSAT/SAT (she hasn’t taken either) at the 75th percentile, selective colleges look possible. But will they put her in the automatic “no” pile because of her school?”
No.
“And even if she did get into a more selective college, would she be academically prepared?”
No.
It is good that you are asking this question when she is a freshman. If she is interesting in having a chance for a selective school, there are a few things I would do.
Take a PSAT/SAT/ACT practice test and get a baseline score in the next few months. Not official, just at home.
Start a discussion about the possibility/value of colleges and selective colleges with her now.
Emphasize the importance of her grades. Let her know that she is not competing with the students around her.
Put extra emphasis on math, reading and writing.
A strong base in math is more important than advanced coursework.
Talk to your GC and find out what schools top students have attended, and what enrichment opportunities are available.
Talk with her about the breadth of majors available that she may not understand. If you live in a remote area, she may not know what people in engineering jobs do, or what people in business majors do. Help her understand a broader range of possibilities. It is too early to pick one, but it is a great time to teach her about possibilities.
Plan value added activities for summer. One of the biggest differences between top students nationally and the typical student is that the top students and their parents use summer to put distance between themselves and others. That can be summer programs or as simple and reading an hour per day and math an hour per day. The point is that at the top level, if you are not moving ahead, you are falling behind.
I would look for online learning opportunities to supplement what she is getting. Cost sounds like a factor, so look at whether your state has an online program available. Also she may be able to find something in her areas of interest in free MOOCs and on other sites.
While I don’t usually think it’s a great idea for kids to self-study AP classes (most of the kids on here come from programs that are more than adequate and are just trying to pad their resumes with scores on easy APs), it sounds like her high school program is going to be well below challenging for her, and she might like to consider tackling an AP or two on her own. Does she have any peers at her school who might be interested in doing some kind of study group together? For instance, if she can get to precalculus as a junior, she might consider working through AB as a senior.
Her program will likely not show off her potential to colleges, so make sure she preps for the standardized tests to show what she can do.
I’m wondering why you don’t consider having her homeschool if you think her only HS option can’t possibly offer what she needs. The “Class of 2016 Parents” forum here has several homeschoolers who have gotten into very selective schools, so that could certainly work for you. Perhaps some of them would be willing to guide you? Or go to the homeschool forum here on CC.
But I will caution you that what you see in freshman year is not always a good predictor of how your kid will turn out by senior year. I can say that from personal experience and from that of various relatives and friends’ kids. But you know your kid best. If the HS is absolutely never going to challenge her, remove her. There are free online HS linked to many states, or create your own curriculum.
Please have your daughter self study at home to increase rigor. That is what we are doing. What math in she in?
My 7th grader has been working through Paul Foerster’s Algebra I book this school year as a supplement to her public school Alg 1 class. The text has increased rigor and high quality word problems. If you have not heard of the home school site “Well Trained Mind” forum, check it out. That is where I am learning how to supplement my kid’s public school education (as it is not the best rigor either).
Our high school is similar and my kids did fine with admissions. I’ll PM you.
Harvard does not require calculus. It is not necessary to take advanced math classes in high school to gain entrance to elite schools, depending on what else the student has to offer and what her interests are.
Be aware that many selective schools do not require or do not emphasize standardized test scores, though for merit aid they may be needed. Check out this list: http://fairtest.org/university/optional Under B’s alone you will find Bowdoin, Bates, Bennington, Brandeis, Bryn Mawr. Prepping for testing is okay but excessive stress over testing in order to prove ability because of a less than rigorous school is not healthy.
We felt there were advantages to a less then rigorous school.
Less stress over colleges (and less stressful work)
Opportunity to do a lot at home, learning naturally with books around, museum visits, etc. These did not happen with extra effort, just out of interest.
Time and energy for outside activities, in our case, CS, technical theater, tv camera work for one, dance and music for the other two.
Some opportunity and time for other academics, if affordable. We actually got our school to join Virtual High School so online classes were free. Otherwise they are about $400. Check out opportunities for dual enrollment at community college, online classes at universities and virtual high schools. But only if your daughter is interested. If she is the kind of kid who gets excited about, say, taking philosophy or Latin or environmental science or whatever is not offered at your small school (AP or no AP) then she could look into these opportunities.
I would never suggest #4 just to get into college. But if a young person is frustrated in school or has a strong desire to learn outside of the offerings at school, then great, support that. I think of it like surfing. You don’t create the wave but as a parent, we ride the wave of our kids’ interests, so to speak
Colleges are actually prospecting for students in high schools that are underrepresented on campus, but they do want to know the student can do the work. And it is true that for some kids who go to schools that are similarly limited, freshman year can be stressful and grades go down. But often the kids adjust and grades go up and they get a lot out of a challenging selective school. This depends on personality as much as ability in my opinion. Some students are resilient and don’t get excessively upset joining a well-prepared community when their own preparation is lacking. Others love the challenge.
And it is possible for your daughter to be well-prepared depending on what she does outside of school and also on the quality of what is actually offered where she is.
OP.
she can do LOTS of studying online, such as with Khan Academy, and then take SAT subject tests to prove her level of knowledge. She needs to take outside classes in order to be as well prepared as possible for College level work.
This isn’t about what is required, it’s about trying to get her an appropriate education. I gave calculus as an example. Some APs are not as suited to self-study–in the lab sciences, there will be no lab; foreign languages are pretty tough if you have no one to converse with. Math is more amenable to self study, if she can master the material without assistance. Maybe some social sciences.
Sure, only a few of the top engineering schools require calculus. But to say that no college requires calculus is a bit of a straw man. The fact is that over 400,000 high school students are taking AP calculus every year. The colleges may or may not hold it against her, probably most won’t considering that her school doesn’t offer it, but it still will be an area of relative weakness when she shows up in college. Why not try to work on it if she has the time and the motivation? Even if she ends up repeating calculus in college, she will probably find that many of her classmates are doing the same. We’ve seen threads on this site by frustrated students who are probably the only one in their college calc class who haven’t already studied calculus. This is a tremendous disadvantage and can be very discouraging to a freshman coming out of a weaker high school background.
Adding to the posts that her education need to be supplemented:
Online high school where your daughter can take one or two classes (and do the rest in school) are a possibility. Many are quite affordable and count for credit (YMMV since your school has the final word).
Mizzou online:
There are more, I’m sure. Your own state may have these options and may even be free. I have had to supplement my kids’ education every now and then.
You can PM me if you wish.
Can you HS join an online “virtual” high school? This way she and other students could be in a study hall and work on one subject that can’t be offered at the school, and she could supplement at home. Most virtual high schools have several levels of Spanish, for instance, and offer precalculus regular and Honors.
She’ll need to find activities that help her stand out, whatever she’s interested in - ice skating, teaching sign language, EMT, kabuki, whatever :).
You could read
How to be a high school superstart, by Cal Newport
http://thevhscollaborative.org/ This is the one our school joined, but only after we paid $400 for a class and recommended it. The school now has 25 slots per semester for online classes. The kids love them.
It really depends a lot on what goes on outside of school. My daughter was out sick for a couple of weeks and when she went back she understood chemistry better than the classmates who had been there: the teacher had only confused them! Kids can learn a lot at home just by doing the work assigned to them, and doing it well.
But again, the lack of rigor is an opportunity to explore interests and have time for them. This does a lot more for admissions than academics in some cases (assuming academics meet benchmarks) and means enjoying high school.
If her high school’s profile shows lack of rigor, then to show that she’s academically prepared for a selective school she may need a relative high SAT/ACT score. Have a look at prospective schools’ Common Data Set section C9 to see the scores of the last admitted class.
Since your daughter is already at the top of her class, finding academic enrichment like the kinds mentioned here is important, regardless of where she ultimately chooses to go to college. As for college: what are the ‘best’ colleges and universities that recent graduates of this high school have attended? Can you contact these recent top performers and see if they are willing to share their experiences about how they prepared or how/if they’ve struggled. Even if nobody from the area has ever gone to an Ivy or selective LAC, you can probably find a few former students who are now at state flagships. Their experiences would give you a baseline of what your daughter could expect.
Try to contact the students themselves. Parents of college students are not always the most well informed about their offspring’s problems.
For her social development I recommend keeping her in her HS. She needs to supplement her academics following suggestions above. Several AP exams can be taken without taking the AP course. She might use her summers to do one or two courses each- some gifted summer camps will cover an AP course in 3 weeks. Review would be needed the following spring. There is no reason she needs to wait- not all school districts require students to be in advanced grades. Since the budget is a concern check out programs that may offer scholarships. Definitely look at your state flagship’s website. You want your D to be as well prepared as she can be for your home state options.
At this age your D may have no idea what she will major in in college. Most college freshmen will change majors (if they even have one) once they are exposed to the much wider world of college. She may not fit in with the other students if she is a much more serious student than the others. This has to be HER plan. You can give her ideas and support but she needs to want to do the extra work. She might get excited about learning more and leaving her small county world. She might deal with feeling she’s rejecting you by wanting to move beyond the world you are living in. Your support is great. Good luck.
