How common is getting "shut out" for "reasonably good" students?

<p>I missed the rule where every forum comment required footnotes. Read the Times, the Trib, WaPo. Open up a database like ProQuest. Compare the data sets. If you’re offended by the comment I assume it’s only because of an affiliation with a regional or community college. The facts speak for themselves. Millions are not on college confidential to figure out how to get into the best junior college in America. Professionals aren’t wasting their lives away because “where a student goes to college doesn’t matter.” It does matter. The rat race continues. Highlighting my post history is just a cheap shot because you’re offended by the facts. Take care.</p>

<p>My D’s friend was an average student and what I would call a " reasonably good student." She applied to two safety schools that she did not want to go to ( therefore they are not safety schools). The remaining schools were very big reaches for her. The GC pleaded with her to please add a few more safety and match schools, but she refused. Then she got annoyed because guidance had no faith in her (?). The end result- she got rejected from all of the schools except for one where she was wait listed. She got off the wait list in April. This is how " reasonably good" students get shut out. This kid was lucky. </p>

<p>The family has a son who is a sophomore so they will be starting this process again soon. This boy is quiet, rarely goes out, and is involved in very few outside activities. I think he umpires during baseball season. He is also an average " reasonably good" student and the mom ( my friend) just listed a few top 20 highly selective LACs that she is interested in looking into. She is setting her son up to be shut out. </p>

<p>I have another friend who has a kid only applying to match and reach schools that are only affordable with merit aid ( as per the mom). She is convinced that her kid is getting merit to these schools. Again, this is how kids get shut out. </p>

<p>Linden joined on March 5th, which happens to be in the middle of many college spring breaks, and a day or two before another large number of college spring breaks began. </p>

<p>She started two threads asking for help, but her reactions to people offering help, insight and ideas have been argumentative at best.</p>

<p>She claims to be a confused single parent, but also claims to know many very smart, highly educated people who atrended only the top universities, and also claims to be widely read and aware of recent research for which she refuses to give a link when asked. (Research which people who have been posting here for years have never heard of…)</p>

<p>I smell someone who is bored and stuck at home during this spring break… If I’m wrong about that, I sincerely apologize, and offer my condolences to her sons. </p>

<p>@InfoQuestMom: don’t have it with me but I’ll try to find a link or the reference. </p>

<p>Linden I think you are focusing on a different type of State college than most here. Yes, a local regional branch or a CC may not be as good as a high achieving high school. That is very different from a nationally ranked State U, even on that is ranked in the 150s. Those schools will still have very smart kids that can’t afford a private or who do not want to take on debt. Of course going to an unranked or CC (in my state and many others) will not provide much challenge. But an honors program or even a regular program at Big State U certainly could in most states. Nobody here is saying that all colleges are the same. </p>

<p>Starting at a community college does not mean being condemned to low achievement.
<a href=“Newsroom | UCLA”>http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/at-just-14-ucla-math-student-moshe-229359.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>“This is how " reasonably good” students get shut out. This kid was lucky."</p>

<p>Happens with the brightest of them. A family friend’s kid had a 235+ in PSAT, was doing quite well in school but decided to apply only to HYP because the kid was overhyped as a shoo in. Got lucky by getting admitted by a top 30 very late in admission cycle or else would have ended up in local college.</p>

<p>Was just talking with a parent this morning who turned down Columbia for the state flagship. It’s not one of the popular flagships mentioned here (UMich, UC’s etc.) but she was confident that she’d get a good education there and wanted to go into grad school debt-free. The parent said she’s having a great experience.</p>

<p>“Linden I think you are focusing on a different type of State college than most here. Yes, a local regional branch or a CC may not be as good as a high achieving high school. That is very different from a nationally ranked State U, even on that is ranked in the 150s. Those schools will still have very smart kids that can’t afford a private or who do not want to take on debt.”</p>

<p>I understand. Perception and context in this thread is interesting. “Reasonably good” in the title reads like “terminal unmotivated underachiever” to me. A 3.5 with no honors or AP doesn’t make your child “reasonably good.” But a 3.5 from Stuy with a demanding course load and tons of ECs is fairly impressive. Furthermore, there are very few acceptable publics, perhaps 5 in the nation. Even so, I personally believe not sending your accepted child to a higher ranked private due to financial concerns or debt avoidance is penny wise and pound foolish. As you said, “publics are full of students who can’t afford the privates” i.e., middle class. If you want to provide your child the greatest chance at social mobility they need to make connections with friends and people in higher circles and be pushed by the highest concentration of the best and brightest. As we all know, the top tier institutions provide that ethos.</p>

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<p>How does this happen? My understanding is that school like Columbia will make sure you that you can “afford” to attend. I am asking because I hear the same situation (schools of Columbia’s calibre) for a couple of my daughter’s friends. What is the “minimum” contribution these schools expect from kids’ parents - is that 10% of their income? 20% or higher?
This is one area of college application where we are totally in the dark. Unfortunately (or fortunately), our income situation precludes us from getting any need-based money from any colleges.</p>

<p>“How does this happen?”</p>

<p>In my opinion, one or more of the following: (1) People lie. (2) Reckless and or selfish family finances, e.g., Mom wanted to remodel the kitchen instead of giving the child $80k contribution or something like leased Audi’s in the drive way (3) Penny wise, pound foolish (4) The parents or the child were scared to move so far from home</p>

<p>I question why the parent has to even bring up that their child got into Columbia, or go out of their way to talk up how great they’re doing at the public. Reeks of mcmansion rich.</p>

<p>Sigh… Why so negative.
(1) That is always a possibility - but both kids have very good stats.
(3) Let me assure you that going to the number 1 campus of our state school system on merit aid is definitely not “penny wise, pound foolish”.
(4) Don’t know
(2) That’s precisely why I am asking the question (by the way, you did not answer). When you are making, say, $100,000 (keep in mind that we live in a very expensive area of the country), and the school is expecting you to contribute $2500 a year and you are not willing - yes, this can be seen as selfish. However, if the school is expecting you to contribute $25,000 a year, then I can understand why some people will have issue with this - you are put on the spot to whether fund your kid’s education (at an optional choice school) or your 401k plan - it is not so clear cut.</p>

<p>I think Princeton and Harvard are the two Ivy League schools with the best financial aid, but I am no expert on this. Princeton has a nice chart that gives an estimate based on income. There are many people who fall into the category of " too poor to write out large checks and too rich for FA. Some of these families may do well at H or P - IF their kid gets in. They might not get enough FA from the other IL’s. My D fell in love with Cornell but this is a school where we would most likely only get loans in the FA package, with POSSIBLY a SMALL grant. </p>

<p>I totally understand a kid going to their public school and turning down Columbia to avoid debt, especially if grad school is in the picture. Sometimes it’s very difficult for parents to come to terms with the fact that their hard working, top student can’t attend competitive schools they were accepted to due to finances. This often happens in middle class families and brings to the table the importance of finding safety schools that will often give merit aid. Great schools are out there if you do the research. </p>

<p>Linden is right in that many families spend money on luxuries and have little left to pay for college. In my community the grandparents come to the rescue and foot the bill for $50,000 a year, but that’s another discussion… </p>

<p>I think that we have gotten off topic. Reasonably good students should not be shut out of schools on April 1 if they do their research and choose wisely. It is important to go through this process realistically. </p>

<p>Linden, I think maybe part of the disconnect here is your assumption/assertion is that everyone on CC has a goal of ‘social mobility’ for their kids, and that the college admissions ‘game’ is all about how to get our kids into the most selective U possible. There are a couple of flaws in this line of thinking</p>

<p>1) Many of us don’t crave social mobility for our kids. Personally, I crave choice for my kids. I want their college educations to provide them with choices in their life. Attending a good public school ( in-state or out of state) to avoid debt is one of those choices. A large number of people on CC are middle class and find the middle-class lifestyle perfectly acceptable. Many actually worry about our kids reaching the same position in life that we have, and see large college debt as one of the key factors in preventing reaching the middle class. most of us know families crippled with Ivy-league ( or similar) debt. Those kids living in their parents spare room with $1200 monthly loan payments are experiencing social mobility in the wrong direction.</p>

<p>2)I find it odd that you would say there are perhaps 5 public schools that are acceptable. Successful people that attended public colleges and universities are not outliers- most executives/innovators/doctors etc attended public schools. My husband and I attended a large OOS school…a very good school with a HUGE alumni network but you probably would not list it as one of your ‘five’ acceptable schools. 20 years after graduation, some of our classmates are already retired and MANY are very successful by anyone’s measure. Some, including us, chose a path of very good but not tippy-top level careers in order to have a more balanced life. Many of our classmates are just having their children now, having achieved a certain level of success that met their own goals. Being graduates of a lowly public flagship university has not slowed any of them down. Because we did not have a crazy level of debt, we could make our choices based on the lives we wanted to lead.</p>

<p>3) My oldest is now a Jr. Our seach is focused on fit. The school with the right fit will have the programs in which she is interested, have a decent amount of smart-but-quirky kids, be located out of state and preferably near a big city, require no loans from us and only the Federal Direct amounts for her. Other considerations for her are types of dorms available, easy of transport to the college she chooses, and types of study abroad. She has very high test scores but also has the dreaded 3.5 GPA you describe. She has taken a very rigorous courseload but is also not driven to score 100% on every test, and opts to go to bed at midnight knowing she may get a 91% instead of a 98% on a test. I applaud this attitude and she will find her place among similar minded peers. She is very intellectual and very interested in the big, deep conversations you imagine happening only at an Ivy, but she is also deeply concerned about ideas of class division and cringes at the idea of being surrounded by Type A kids who think only Ivy league grads will have a decent life.</p>

<p>I guess my point is, even on CC, many parents with smart, talented kids do not believe that the most selective colleges are the direct path to dream life, and many don’t wish to have their children join the ‘elite’ club of the upper class. Many of us are in the upper class or know people who are, and some of those people have train-wreck lives. Money and connections are not the secret sauce to success. So while I am sure there is a large contigent with the same goals you have, many don’t. Inluding many Ivy grads who have learned throughout their lives that many paths can lead to a satifisying, financially stable life. </p>

<p>furrydog - It depends on one’s income and the college’s FA policies if they declined the admission purely based on financial reasons. There are many families out there who don’t qualify for any FA starting around 130-140k of gross income (remember it is usually based on Adjust Gross income rather than taxable number at the end of a tax return) which means they may need to pony up 65k for a school like Columbia. I have heard of a case at an Ivy where they wanted full fee from someone making 25k. Turned they had a large insurance settlement and one’s EFC has at least 5% of assets as being available. So if you have a million sitting in the bank, the schools want 50k.</p>

<p>“Furthermore, there are very few acceptable publics, perhaps 5 in the nation.”</p>

<p>Wow. Just wow. You really believe that? Oh.my.gawd.</p>

<p>“If you want to provide your child the greatest chance at social mobility they need to make connections with friends and people in higher circles…”</p>

<p>Social mobility? You think just being surrounded by rich folks will make your kids richer? If your oldest isn’t self-motivated to actually study by the time he goes off to college, then merely being there to rub shoulders with the rich isn’t going to help. Your kid will be better off by being determined to succeed, because wealth doesn’t actually rub off on anyone. The rich somewhat tolerate the self-made folks.</p>

<p>If your kid can’t afford to do the leisure time activities that his rich classmates are doing, then he won’t even be rubbing shoulders. Are you going to fly him to the Hamptons each summer? </p>

<p>…“and be pushed by the highest concentration of the best and brightest. As we all know, the top tier institutions provide that ethos.”</p>

<p>Heck, that’s what honor colleges are for at the dreaded publics. Sheesh.</p>

<p>I know someone who thought their child was the perfect fit for a school which accepts less than 10%. That child applied to only that school and was deferred. For whatever reason (parents put child in charge of applying, child lied to parent and told then everything was in control) the child only had that one application and deferral until the end of January. At that point the parent found out what was happening and there were very few options left as applications were closed by the time they found out. Applied to the state flagship but ultimately was deferred and wait listed. Was a probable admit if had applied in time (rolling admissions). Ended up at a state directional u, not very happy. In a major they didn’t really like, switched majors but messed up GPA so transferring wasn’t a viable option either. </p>

<p>Just talked to someone the other day. Can’t afford their EFC, child a good but not great student. Thought they would get great merit aid but applied to mostly matches. I predict will end up at a state school. Good choices but would not listen when I tried to tell them if not the state school, that a financial safety is essential. </p>

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At my kid’s private high school where 30-35% kids get into top 20s, getting into Columbia is still note worthy. Parents do not need to go out of their way to say anything, people know where students got accepted/rejected. Even if it is bragging, are we so sure lower economic parents wouldn’t necessary brag just as much? How is it “reeks of mcmansion?”</p>

<p>linden- What reincarnated poster are you? Do tell?</p>

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<p>linden, I don’t know where you developed your contempt for, well, pretty much everybody. I also hate to add to the many flaws in your logic that have been noted. You are obsessed with social mobility and think the elite schools are the ticket into the halls of Goldman Sachs or Harvard Law School. I hate to break it to you, but if you and your family are not already part of the ruling class (or whatever you want to call it), your only hope is to become part of the nouveau riche McMansion set. Pushing your kids to get into these schools will not automatically open doors to corporate boardrooms and summers on Fire Island. As you have noted yourself, the entry into the club often starts far earlier than college. And people who have been brought up with wealth and privilege are often pretty wise to those who they see as opportunistic social climbers. You deceive yourself if you believe otherwise.</p>

<p>ETA: slightly cross-posted with missbwith2boys. :)</p>