How common is getting "shut out" for "reasonably good" students?

Parents Forum
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<p>WWWard, I know exactly what you are saying. It sounds like your daughter is dealing with it well. I disagree with people that she didn’t apply to a good range. She has three safety/matches in-state and they are all viable options. </p>

<p>It is very difficult to look around at people being accepted and not feel slighted. My son has been fortunate to have only received acceptances and waitlists, but I know that he will have to deal with the teachers/staff/classmates that will have thought he was a shoo-in for the more prestigious schools that he was w/l for. </p>

<p>My son is taking everything in stride and actually really wants to go to a safety close to home that has offered him a full-ride, so it is my aspirations for him that are smarting - not his. One of the schools he was w/l for offered two students at his school spots this year…one white female, one white male. My white son had higher stats in every way, but was applying for a more selective program within the school. I’m actually glad that it was two of his caucasian friends that got in or I may have thought that race played a factor. I also believe that both of the students are very well deserving. </p>

<p>I am so glad my son only applied to one lottery school and two high reaches…I don’t think I could have dealt with the stress :-S </p>

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<p>Off topic from the OP, but this seems to fit the way the discussion is going - if you have a very high stats, well-rounded kid without a major hook, don’t just rely on one or two match/safeties. I’m very pleased with the way things worked out for my kiddo, but I feel like we should have been a little more cautious. My daughter has a 36 ACT, 3.93 UW GPA, 4.6ish W, 9 APs with As, student body president of a large public high school in the top 100 in the country, other good ECs. published research in a minor journal, and excellent recs. Her Yale essays were weak, but she came into her own with the others. Here’s her results:
Accepted WUSTL, Will&Mary, state flagship
Rejected: Yale, Brown
Waitlisted: Harvard, U.Chicago and Case
The Case waitlist upset her because she visited, sent supplemental materials and applied for an extra scholarship that required an essay, all of which she thought would demonstrate enough interest-and she was interested for several reasons. Her acceptance at the state flagship was probably a certainty, but the others, not necessarily. If I had to do it again, I’d encourage her to add more match schools and another safety.</p>

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<p>datageek, she has two great acceptances as well as the state flagship. If all are affordable, she’s got a wonderful choice to make, so congrats to both of you.</p>

<p>I don’t know how much yield management might have played into your D’s experience with Case. It’s possible she might have gone into the group of applicants that adcoms thought unlikely to attend, based on how strong the application was. Counter-intuitive, but as long as yield is a factor colleges can tweak, we’ll see cases where highly-qualified kids are waitlisted instead of accepted outright. (I’m not saying that Case doesn’t have many students with such top stats, just that admissions may look carefully for top-stat students who are likely to attend).</p>

<p>If you can afford it, W&M is a great option (mom of two alums here). Glad she had such success!</p>

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<p>I have heard a form of this many places and just heard it again on sports talk radio in a discussion about Northwestern Football and college athletics in general: athletes add value to a college or university. As much as it seems unfair at first it is true. Our older kid had good enough stats for a lottery ticket at Stanford, but did not win a spot. The people who we know of ever who did from our district were recruited varsity athletes. At first blush one might think “how unfair” but athletics is part of what makes Stanford Stanford. Can you imagine Harvard or other Ivies without crew? Kid #2 used to row and their club had what seemed like an amazing track record with sending kids to ivies - both men and women. Well, these were very academically qualified kids who had completed IB diplomas etc and also happened to have gone to nationals and had really fast erg times that might bolster an area that the institution values highly. </p>

<p>Those institutions still have an AI range that athletes need to meet and they only get so many slots at the lower end of that range. I know I’m getting into 4th person stories now, but a former client has a nephew who was being recruited to play football at some very selective institutions. I won’t name names, but as she related it when he went for his formal visit at one (recruiting for QB at this school) they told him that they only had one slot for a player with his ACT range so they needed him to verbally commit or they would look at another player for that slot. Like it or not that admissions ticket was going to some quarterback and was never going to be available to the general public. The Ivy League is an athletic conference and unless you are also a quarterback you are not in the running for that admissions ticket. You are not being bumped or passed over . . . it was never on the table.</p>

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<p>Frazzled1, I’m hoping she does pick W&M. I think she’d thrive there, but she wants to go back and visit both first.</p>

<p>I think the yield issue is becoming a bigger factor, and that makes it tougher to know which schools can be considered matches in some cases. </p>

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<p>It depends on how many students with a 36 chose to join them in the past. OTOH, Brown admits 30+ percent of perfect scorers but unfortunately your daughter fell into the negative side of this.</p>

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<p>I get the impression she would not pick Case even if she got in. If she is still strongly interested, it may be worth pursuing the wait list there. As others have said, it is likely that they put her on the WL to see if she really wants to attend. Congrats on the good choices. </p>

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<p>This process is an ever changing beast and I agree with whomever said it was harder on the parents than the student. I have read with interest your thoughts on reaches, safeties,and Naviance stats. My cynical self questions the advantages of the student who does NOT request financial aid? And, by simply completing the FASFA, the admission dept can “see” the other schools you have applied to. Can that shut out a student? </p>

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<p>Your kid got into a top 20 university (WashU) and an excellent one right below (W&M). She only needs one place to attend. That IS success of the highest order! </p>

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<p>The problem with a college list like WWWard’s daughter’s is that it’s reaches and safeties. If she’s perfectly happy going to one of her safeties, then there is nothing wrong with it. If she gets into USC, then all is well – she only needs one school to go to, and USC is great. What’s missing are those 2-3 schools in the middle. Like Skidmore or Goucher or Muhlenberg, for example. </p>

<p>twocollege: That question has been asked and debated a lot on CC. I think most people believe that for the vast majority of applicants at schools that are need-blind, applying for financial aid does not hurt you. In fact – Brown today is very proud of the fact that 18% of its accepted students are first-generation, and my assumption is that most of them need a huge pot of money. </p>

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<p>.I can’t believe how much things have changed since I applied to colleges. I’ll know to tell my friends with younger children to do more research.</p>

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<p>WWWard said: “My younger D still wants to aim for Brown as her first choice in 3 years… and is already expecting the rejection. But she will put forth the effort nonetheless. And time will tell if things change for her or remain the same. But she plans to also aim for Top Heavy. Apply for where you want to go… and end up where you end up. You can’t simply aim for safe admissions and then follow a path that fails to inspire you. At least that is the way our family see it”</p>

<p>WWWard, I hope you will at least consider the advantages of developing a small, well-balanced list. Contrary to what many here on CC may tell you, it is not a radical concept. There are good reasons why most experienced high school guidance counselors recommend this approach. A short list really forces an applicant to find the best schools for them across the selectivity spectrum. If you search hard, you will find schools that are very inspiring without being highly selective. It also allows the applicant more time for more thoughtful and targeted applications, which are more effective. </p>

<p>In your post you bemoan the ease of admission for athletes, but typically athletes do not cast a wide-net and hope for the best. They start their process two years in advance, and they research, network, visit and heavily promote themselves to coaches. They know exactly how many left-handed women foilist are on Harvard’s fencing team or who else in the country is being recruited for Yale’s pitching staff. There are no rules that say non-athletes with special talents can’t do the same thing, as Calmom suggested with her daughter’s Russian skills. I know my own daughter visited theatre departments, resume in hand, and some professors were glad to contact admissions on her behalf. One large highly selective university we visited actually had a an appointed theater liaison to the admissions department. </p>

<p>My daughter, like yours, also had an interest in Brown’s theater dept., so we sent her to a summer intensive there, not to improve her chances (which I don’t think it does anyway) but to help her understand if and why she really wanted to pursue undergrad theater, and if so, what type of theatre program. At the end of the summer she did decide she would like to apply to Brown so a professor there was kind enough to develop a list for her of similar programs. This guy has a Yale BA and a Brown MFA, and I found his list very telling. Except Brown, no other Ivy League schools, not even Yale. I recall the list included Bates, Skidmore, Bard, Vassar, Boston University and others. Selective? Yes, but not the usual USN&WR and CC list of uber-selective ‘top’ schools. I spoke to the professor on the phone and he was a real theatre wonk ,and knew the people, the classes and the work. I’m certain he was oblivious to the general public’s perception of the college name and their rankings.</p>

<p>My point being, throw away the rankings, have your younger daughter dig deep within herself on who she is and what she wants, work with her to prepare a short list of schools that really match her profile and interests and take her on the road and visit and talk to those schools before she applies. </p>

<p>Sorry to ramble and I’m sorry about your family’s horrible day yesterday. Best of luck with USC (an amazing school, as is FSU) and with your younger daughter’s search.</p>

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<p>My heart also goes out to @WWWard. What I might say to her, though, is that while I totally understand not wanting to go to a school for which you don’t feel passion or by which you’re not inspired, try to have the younger daughter consider a range of schools that truly inspire. While the Florida schools seem like good safety choices from the outside, they obviously do not inspire WWWard’s daughter. But maybe there are some other less selective or in-state schools that might. It’s also possible that depending on what happens with USC, the daughter might re-visit some of those schools, and seek something that might inspire. WWWard said that FSU has a good theatre program – is there something else there that can make it a good experience? What about U of Miami? As an outsider, just being in the city of Miami seems energizing, and my understanding is that the theatre arts experience there is great! I know it’s easy for us looking in from the outside to make suggestions. Please forgive me for putting my two cents in. But I do empathize, and I guess, just wanted to communicate that, and offer some additional thoughts.</p>

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<p>Shut-out threads:</p>

<p><a href=“An Example of an Admissions Mistake by a Student - Applying to College - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1631457-an-example-of-an-admissions-mistake-by-a-student.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“Literally Rejected Everywhere. Cheap Gap Year Ideas? - Applying to College - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1631176-literally-rejected-everywhere-cheap-gap-year-ideas.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“waitlisted everywhere - Applying to College - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1631463-waitlisted-everywhere.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>@arwarw Is your daughter a senior in high school now? If so, care to share what are her top choices?</p>

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<p>PTiger, yes she’s a senior now - Her clear top choices were Brown and Northwestern. Beyond that it get’s a little fuzzy, but she really loved Fordham, Barnard and Williams. </p>

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<p>I think the top-heavy approach works for some high performing kids. My son used that and was very successful. The problem, however, is the definition of “high performing”. We know a top student from a southern state who didn’t get into any of the top 20 schools he applied. The family and the school were surprised. But in reality, his stats were probably above-average when compared to the top students from the coasts, let alone the ECs, research experiences, etc. So an assessment of the credentials, IMO, is crucial. </p>

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<p>“Brown and Northwestern . . . Fordham, Barnard and Williams” is not what I would call a “well-balanced list.” It’s four extremely selective colleges, especially competitive for someone whose resume screams “Theater!”, and a safety that is a completely different kind of college.</p>

<p>On the other hand, contrary to fireandrain, Goucher and Muhlenberg are not “in the middle” between W&M and Stanford. For any student with Stanford-eligible stats, Goucher and Muhlenberg would be stone safeties, at least in terms of admissions. </p>

439

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Brown admitted 24% of 36 ACT applicants last year. They probably admitted fewer this year. The most surprising result is Case Western. 98% of Parchment members with 3.9+ GPA and 35+ ACT were accepted to Case. Scattergrams and decision threads on this site also show the vast majority of top stat applicants are accepted, but there are a few exceptions. Some of the exceptions likely relate to Case marking level of applicant’s interest as important in the CDS.</p>

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<p>JHS said “Brown and Northwestern . . . Fordham, Barnard and Williams” is not what I would call a “well-balanced list.” It’s four extremely selective colleges, especially competitive for someone whose resume screams “Theater!”, and a safety that is a completely different kind of college.</p>

<p>JHS that was not her college list. The question asked is - what were her top choices? Of those 4 schools, she only applied to Brown and Fordham, along with U of Minn, Boston U. and UNC Chapel Hill. </p>