Two of my kids have been through the local schools’ gifted testing battery twice. Both of them had different scores each time. For one of them the scores were wildly different, even though the tests were taken a year apart, and the kid had the same classroom teacher both years. She was not categorized as “gifted” the first time, but scored so high she hit the test ceiling the second. We almost did not have her tested a second time because we thought this type of test wouldn’t fluctuate much year to year. I don’t know what differences may have occurred in test administration, but the notable thing for us is that she had lost a close friend to illness in the months before she was tested the first time. It made me question the reliability of the tests.
Our district lets anyone with good grades in previous classes give honors level classes a shot in high school, even if they haven’t tested as gifted. By senior year, the AP classes are mostly populated by the kids who are both intelligent and hardworking.
I was under the impression that is how it was done too, but it isn’t. in the case of our son, they wanted him to attend an alternative high school that didn’t offer Honor and AP level courses because he had attended elementary and middle schools in a lower socioeconomic minority (Hispanic) neighborhood.
I tried to explain to the HS administrators that our son was in the gifted and talented programs at his elementary and middle schools. Also, he was taking the most challenging courses offered. In fact he had accumulated almost a year’s worth of high school courses by the end of middle school (middle school allowed gifted kids to take high school courses on a pass fail basis). I knew he had scored high on the Stanford Binet. I think it was in the high 90 percentile range, but at the time I did not know or understand what SB was, so I didn’t bring it up. However, the high school must have had access to them when they received his records. He also qualified for Duke TIPs. His 7th grade SAT score was not very high, but still highest in his school. He was also in the top 10% of his class. Yet, despite this, the HS administrators told us he would not be able to close the academic gap and would fail and drop out of high school if he didn’t attend an alternative school. So, they basically gave him weighted Bs and Cs for his High School work in middle School, which translated to As and Bs for an alternative school.
Then, son had to put up with a cacophony of degrading and snarky remarks every time he went for counselling because he didn’t transfer to the alternative school. I still remember going with him to the counselor when she told him in front of me, he was insubordinate. I ignored the comment and told her he wanted to go to TX A&M. She chuckled and said, her daughter goes to A&M, how is he getting into A&M? ( he was permanently excluded from the top 10% by the way they had weighted his middle school high school work). I told her to look at his SAT scores he was already an academic admit (over 1350 M+V).
@ucbalumnus “Bias (conscious or unconscious) could retard …” Made me think of a quote from Martin Buber:
“Man wishes to be confirmed in his being by man, and wishes to have a presence in the being of the other….
Secretly and bashfully he watches for a YES which allows him to be and which can come to him only from one human person to another.
”
― Martin Buber, I and Thou
One of my kids has a very average IQ, but she is very cleaver, quick witted, well read, knowledgeable about art, religion, history. She’s the one you want to talk to at a cocktail party. She’s the one you want to be friends with.
Other child has a much higher IQ but no sense of humor, no interest in reading anything much less talking about it, likes math, science, hair styles, clothing, shoes. She likes to do physical things like cut the grass or paint a room. Unless you enjoy talking about cutting grass, she’s not that interesting to talk to (she doesn’t really like to talk about it either).
I don’t know which one you’d label as ‘smart.’
@twoinanddone This is a self-graded exam. So I can’t answer. 
But how did you go about helping each of your talented but in different ways kids become the best they could each be? What other influences helped??
Well, IQ is literally the measure of intelligence. So when you tell us the one is higher IQ than the other, answering becomes very easy. When people say IQ isn’t a good measure of intelligence, they mean that IQ tests do not accurately measure IQ.
@patertrium, my kids are basically the same age and were in the same school grade, so for many years they did the exact same things - girl scouts, basketball team, violin. Yep, no individual encouragement at all, just part of the assembly line; I am a single mother and couldn’t be in two places at the same time. In about 5th grade, they finally each got to concentrate on what they wanted to do for activities. In 6-8th grades, they went to different schools (big mistake for one) so had different friends, different interests. They each have their own sport, but in school they just took the classes that interested them. One chose to go to France for a school trip, the other chose to play club (travel) lacrosse for about the same amount of money.
@Vladenschlutte , the original question was ‘what makes your kid so smart?’ I’d say the casual observer would think my lower IQ child was ‘smarter’ as she is more socially able to convey her intelligence to others when talking about art or Greek columns or the meaning of a passage from a book. “An Intelligence Quotient, or IQ, is a measure of what psychologists call our ‘fluid and crystallized intelligence.’ Put simply, an IQ test measures your reasoning and problem-solving abilities.” This is one definition of IQ. My higher IQ child is much better at figuring out puzzles and math problems and memorizing information. My lower IQ child (and by lower she is only lower than her sister, her IQ is very average compared to her peers) is much better at presenting the information orally or in writing once she learns it, but it may take her longer to learn it.
The only reason I even know their IQ scores is that my ‘smarter’ child was really struggling in school and I was having her tested for special ed services, and my other child needed to have her IEP renewed. Results weren’t what we expected at all, so it’s not as if her high IQ was visible to others and screaming “Hey, I’m a genius”.
People on CC often claim that their children will only flourish at small LACs with other like-minded and knowledge craving students, and you can find these similar students by looking at test scores and grades and perhaps IQ scores. My higher IQ child also had better grades and higher test scores and was recruited by many of those LACs, but she is not the student you want in your Great Books class or discussion group on the Masters (and no one knows it better than her - she wanted nothing to do with those LACs). My other child would not have been admitted to Vassar or Smith or Swathmore, but should would have been a great asset to those discussion groups.
I guess the point is that people don’t look at my two kids and think “Oh, that’s the smart one.”
My high IQ kid is the opposite of the high IQ kid in post #403. I don’t need any test to identify her high IQ. Keen sense of humor and high observation skill. She also loves books. Very social. High EQ intelligence. The only thing doesn’t come through is her grade, it’s not as high as the other kid. She is the smart laid back child, not quite lazy. But she doesn’t put in enough effort on things.
I spent my day at a conference learning how to use the new WISC 5, which is quite different from the former version. Sure, it is nice to get above 130 to be labelled as gifted (2%). In the hands of a really competent psychologist, these tests can sing. They can point to styles of learnings, areas of strength, and so much more. They can tell which student needs immediate feedback, who needs directions repeated, etc, perhaps better said, what teaching style works best with this particular person.
These tests have a history of finding people in careers with a certain profile, e.g. Architect. Such data is useful.
Do you believe all people with high IQs are what most people regard as smart? Our real life experiences differ. Our one child who has clinical IQ which qualifies in the very top percentage(s) is equally non-functioning (which is why we know his IQ bc he had complete neuropsy evaluations and testing.). He is classified as having Aspergers, but he he is disabled by his numerous comorbid conditions and does not function on an adult level even though he is almost 24.
IQ is a very small slice. I wouldn’t want to guess anything on IQ alone.
I have been following this thread all week, with reserved interest. After reading through all the twists and turns the responses have taken, with most circling back to repeat comments, I feel comfortable offering these anecdotes about my URM daughter (I bellieve there was a specific question regarding URMs,) which showed her intellect early on:
At barely the age of 3 she answered a parent’s question while trick or treating with, “well, actually I don’t think so.” And went on to explain why, with said parent looking at her and I incredulously.
At age 4 she did her brother’s 2nd grade math homework right along with him, shouting the answers (to his chagrin.)
At age 5 I went to the kindergarten parent-teacher conference and was greeted by, “nice to meet you Mrs. O’Reilly, I have one question - where does she come from?” All before we sat down. She was the only one fully reading, adding and subtracting, consistently answer questions and leading others.
Also at 5, she walked by herself onto the stage of a huge theater on a cruise ship vacation while waiting for the show to start, and began dancing to the music. They spotlighted her and she just smiled and continued. Then they interviewed her in front of a full house and she clearly and loudly answered all questions!
It was full speed ahead from there - a Gifted Child Society program on Saturdays, leads in plays and musicals, elected president of the National Honor Society and a full boat of AP classes. All this in a small public school with a senior graduating class of just over 100 students.
She is now a sophomore at the University of Pennsylvania and continues to be that outspoken, self-confident, stage seeking child we saw grow up. How did we do it? We didn’t, except that we recognized her innate talents early on and allowed her to follow them. We didn’t force her into any one track or direction, we let her take the lead and encouraged her all the way.
I see what was meant by the original question now. But I’d say that, generally, the answer is yes, for the most part. Maybe some mismatch with autistics or idiot savants though.
Since we have already adventured into the somewhat controversial subject about IQ and giftedness, we may as well ask whether we agree at this. In WISC-IV (I think), it is often claimed the following is true in general. Do you agree at this?
“The Verbal Comprehension and Perceptual Reasoning Composites are very good indicators of giftedness. They do an admirable job of assessing verbal abstract reasoning and provide very useful tests of visual reasoning with less timing emphasis. Working Memory and Processing Speed are less correlated with giftedness.”
Also, is this why, on PSAT, the verbal subtest is twice as heavy-weighted as the Math subtest? Or, is it just because the verbal is more “useful” than the math in college in general (especially at most non-tech/non-engineering colleges, e.g., at most Ivies)?
@mcat2 Regarding the PSAT weighting…
http://collegeadmissions.testmasters.com/psat-nmsqt-history/
See the paragraph starting with “Coincidentally, around this time [~1980], the College Board decided to give the PSAT/NMSQT a face lift to raise its total score from 160 to 240 — by counting the verbal score twice.” The claim is that the intent was to “put certain ethnic groups (guess which ones) whose primary language may not have been English at a disadvantage for National Merit Scholarship consideration.”
The change in 1997 to have separate writing and reading sections, rather than just doubling the verbal score, was the result of a lawsuit by FairTest charging that the test was gender biased.
The new PSAT and SAT coming out this year will have math and verbal equally weighted, and the results should be “interesting” and the response to the results perhaps even more interesting.
Regarding Verbal Comprehension and Perceptual Reasoning Composites vs. Working Memory and Processing Speed:
The Perceptual Reasoning part is non-verbal, and so is probably closer to math or at least geometry. The Working Memory and Processing Speed portions are more related to ability to focus. These aren’t strongly correlated with or against the verbal and perceptual parts. For example, kids can be very intelligent but still have ADHD or other attention or executive functioning issues.
http://www.springer-ld.org/blog/mmulcahey/09/17/13
The WISC gives testers the option to use a formula for a General Ability Index {GAI) that does not count the working memory and processing speed, and so is less sensitive to a student’s working memory and processing speed.
I’d say that a strong working memory and processing speed are very useful in performing many intellectual tasks, so even if they are not as correlated with the verbal and non-verbal parts, they are certainly useful when you look at how well a student performs in school, etc. Whether they are uncorrelated enough to be “separate” from intelligence measures I don’t know. They are still in the WISC, so I guess the consensus is that they are part of generalized cognitive ability (“g”).
Measured or tested IQ is a good but not perfect predictor of academic success, it predicts other characteristics of success less well. It is one data point. I read the smart that the OP is asking about as more comprehensive than simple academic success.
Interesting thread.
Husband and I are high school graduates. No college.
S1. OB/GYN told me to “eat lots of protein” because it helps the brain development of the fetus. I did.
HS Valedictorian, NMSF, Perfect SAT score. Top 10% of college and law school graduation class.
As an infant:
1.) He LOVED books. Had those stacked inside his crib instead of toys. Was verbal and reading at early ages.
2.) He LOVED Madonna. Born around time “Like a Virgin” was popular. I would play MTV to make sure there was noise in the house, and would find him in the playpen kicking his little feet and hands. Played piano and clarinet.
D1. Average student. Liked school well enough, but thought it was unfair that there were things like “homework”.
Excelled at anything that involved a ball. I have no doubt she possesses the same intelligence as her brother, but intellectual things were never “important” to her.
As an infant:
1.) Thought books were for drawing in or tearing pages from, to the absolute horror of her brother.
2.) Loved Beethovens Symphony #5, but that’s about it. Loved the drama I guess. Had zero interest in playing music, albeit a short stint wanting to play drums, until she realized she still had to learn to read music.
Same parents (unedumacated), born two years apart, same experiences, ie: read to every night, same diets, etc.
One child thrived on the “learning” processes and the other found them “boring”.
Either way, both are now extremely responsible young adults. Both college educated, both employed, both happy and healthy.
Well, can tell you what not to do, get divorced. I was prepping for smart kids early on, best prenatal nutrition, lots of fun and enriching activities early, etc, etc. My girls were brilliant in the early grades, reading at HS level by second grade, playing violin, creative and advanced vocabularies. Smartest kids in the class. S was so advanced in math, that he was given packets from 3rd grade on to finish. Now they fast track those kids in my district, and they are taking Algebra early, and then tracked into college classes after completing calc. But he sat there alone doing packets, awaiting 8th grade algebra. He learned to not push himself, as it was all so easy, as was most of school.
However, due to a divorce and essentially joint placement when S was 9 and girls were 5, my efforts atrophied. I maintained my learning priorities for my 3, however my ex rebelled against me, and indulged his workaholism by getting the kids a few videos per weekend, minimally interacting with them, not helping maintain homework schedules, much less music practice schedules. Few enriching activities, no exercise aside from getting them to sports practices. When he was on task with parenting he was great, challenging, fun, interactive, but that was very inconsistent. There was emotional abuse at least in my S’s case as well. Later, an involved GF made TV watching a priority in the evenings. and homework was done inconsistently in front of the TV. Which made my house and my priority setting less than appealing to the kids.
I considered having them tested for giftedness in 6th/7th grades, but at the time it seemed like the enrichment classes would perhaps just lead to burnout, as they were doing a lot already. My community is egalitarian in approach, and my drive in this direction felt excessive in my social context, one reason I appreciate the like minds on CC.
There is another choice I made as well along the way. My family of origin has a tendency to isolated bookishness, and less than engaged social functioning. I saw some of that tendency in my 3, complicated by Ds being twins. So I encouraged social engagement, a lot, and they became very engaged with friends and have better social skills than I had feared at a point, to the exclusion of academics at times.
In HS they were 3.5 students, ACTs in the high 20s/30, got into and graduated from appropriate colleges, done with or working on grad school. They are interesting people, speak multiple languages, well traveled, good at trivia, working on their careers, though given the recession, had a rough time with jobs. The LAC my girls attended were very good for them, helped them find intellectual passions, helped fund study abroad and interesting experiences.
Seeing this discussion, cannot help but reflect on various roads taken.
A lot of this seems to me to fall into a sort of “we only know what we know,” so far. IQ testing, eg, has a perspective and can be limited and/or limiting.
Imo, academic situations (with their programmed learning,) can often mask other talents, the ones there isn’t time for while you’re piled up with school-related tasks, focused on meeting expectations. Sometimes, it’s only when they get stop climbing that particular mountain that you can see how they really operate, how smart they really are, how they think and use what they learned and practiced.
Greatlakesmom, my bff, a splendidly smart woman, intentionally put her kids in front of videos, let them game, never got them into sports after t-ball, and they turned out to be smart, high-achievers. She had some theory that satisfying their non-academic interests (what I considered bad choices,) reduced the pressures on them. Somehow, it worked. It was certainly against the conventions of our generation (to go get some activity, eg.)