<p>I guess what always gets me about these discussions is that the folks that are “con” whatever can never seem to see anything positive about the situation. And I guess that is okay but a pretty bleak way to look at the world. I guess for me, I see the pros and cons in both joining and not joining. It boils down to an individual decision and that decision should be respected. I can’t imagine having a child rush and joining a fraternity or sorority and then the parent behaving like a child, stomping their feet at the “ridiculous” decision. All that does is tells the child that you think they do not have the ability to make sound judgements and be a free thinker. I have four older boys that have all made decisions that I would have never made for myself, but I spent my life preparing these kids for their paths, not the path for the child. They are armed with the skills to make independent decisions. These are their decisions, their lives and their successes. So check your anti-whatever attitude at the door and find something good about your child’s choice. If you dwell on what you hate, versus what you love, your life will be filled with strife and misgivings. And certainly don’t go to said house with your arms crossed and foot tapping, because it will only make you look like a jerk. If your child loves what he or she is getting out of the organization, then respect their decision and get over it.</p>
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<p>I don’t live my life pursuing courses of action based exclusively on what’s best for me. If something I’m considering might be injurious to others, It gives me pause as to whether or not to pursue it.</p>
<p>These are values that I would like to pass on to my children as well.</p>
<p>No doubt, there can be benefits to fraternity membership for those lucky enough to be selected. But what about those excluded simply because a bunch of “kids” didn’t think they were “right?”</p>
<p>There were an awful lot of people sitting in the front of the bus, enjoying their comfortable seats before Rosa Parks came along. Does that make them “right” because they took the best seats that were available to them, even though they were not available to all?</p>
<p>Soze…I have no idea how your mind processes information, but how in the world you made the connection between rush (recruitment) and civil rights is beyond me. Listen. There is no University in the country that makes rush (recruitment) a mandatory requirement. By nature that it is not required, means the students you keep playing your fiddle for made a CHOICE to go through the process. In making that choice, it certainly should have been their personal duty to understand the many outcome possibilities. If said child did not feel they could accept a rejection from an organization, then they should seek membership in an organization they believe in and who by nature of such organization includes everyone. No one is shackling these young men and women and dragging them from house to house only to reject them in the end. You behave as if the Greek system is unconstitutional and fight for its abolishment like doing so would serve the greater good. For our family, some Greek, some not, it is the service aspect that appeals to us. We have always required each of our children perform a great deal of service work (in lieu of paid employment) while they have the opportunity and are void of the financial responsibility of life. This has served them all very, very well and has caused them to see the world as a giving tree so to speak. I am sorry if your son’s choice has injured you. In your own words you spoke about teaching your children your ideals and hoping they would make choices that did not hurt others. Your issue should be with your son, not the Greek system. He obviously did not get your parenting message. Welcome to parenting young adults!</p>
<p>Alas, every general discussion about Greeks follows the essential path of this one. To me, it’s pretty clear that there are lots of kids who have good experiences in fraternities and sororities, and that at some campuses, recruiting is fairly open, and the social life is open, too. But the supporters of Greeks are little bit too quick, I think, to suggest that this is the norm. Based on my knowledge and experience, I think there are a lot of campuses where the following quote is more representative:
I don’t like this, and I wouldn’t want my kids to go to a school where this is the case. So I think the takeaway should be to understand what the social culture, including Greek culture, actually is at the specific schools your kid is considering.</p>
<p>I did not say Greek life itself was damaging. I said it was elitist, cliquish, and segregated. If those things are damaging then so be it. That is an individual value judgment. I find them damaging and thankfully there are VERY FEW organizations left which sanction such behavior.</p>
<p>As far as the list of successful people who were in these organizations, duh, they are primarily representative of a certain class of people. Hence, you proved my point.</p>
<p>There were people who argued that segregated and sex exclusive gentleman’s clubs were beneficial for their time. And to certain groups of people they undoubtedly were. Networking, friendships, business deals, etc. But don’t confuse or conflate the benefit provided to a SELECT few as being beneficial to the whole. Clearly in both cases, select privileged individuals are/were allowed to partake and reap the benefits of their position. And in both cases, there are people who cling to the outdated notion that the existence of such groups somehow benefits those outside of them.</p>
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<p>This is just nonsense. S was in an a cappella group at his school. All were welcome to try out. All did not get in. The members, all students, decided who got in. D1 was a member of a dance group at her school. All were welcome to try out. All did not get in. The members, all students, decided who got in. </p>
<p>There were/are at least 4 singing groups at my S’s school and a dozen dance groups at my D’s school, all operating in the same way. And visa versa btw–singing groups at my D’s school, etc. </p>
<p>There are plenty of examples at most, if not all, colleges where students are excluded from something for some reason or other.</p>
<p>Yes, students are excluded from other activities. However, the difference is that those activities have guidelines and expectations which are applied to everyone vs. a subjective application of the guidelines. One must have talent or other applicable attributes to be accepted in choir, theater, stuco, etc. In addition, preference in participation in such activities is not inherently greater based on connections. Yes, it happens but it’s not an integral part of the process and certainly not held up as a benefit of participation.</p>
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My daughter, along with few other dancers, are responsible for selecting new dancers from fresheman class to join. There was one dancer whom my daughter felt was not qualified, but one senior member was a friend of hers (family connection), and basically twisted everyone’s arms to admit this one dancer. My daughter got the dancers she wanted in, and she didn’t feel it was worth her while to argue over one person. The dance group my daughter belongs to has enough prestigious that a lot of dancers want to join and they only admit a handful each year. The group is run by students and funded by the school.</p>
<p>^^^Again, just nonsense in my opinion and from personal experience. To suggest that
is naive. My kids have been involved in the arts for a long time. Talent IS NOT the only thing that gets you the role, the acceptance, etc.</p>
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Other applicable attributes? Very beautiful and very thin? Mom and Dad have lots of money? My roommate is one of the judges?</p>
<p>As I said, yes, it happens but it’s not an overt concept held as a benefit of participating. If anything, it’s usually discouraged and rightly so.</p>
<p>My kids have been involved in the arts for a long time as well. They have used talent and hard work and not who they know to obtain their successes. I guess that is why I am ‘naive’ in believing it’s how things are actually done.Yes, there are some favorites played just as in other areas in life. However, it is NOT part of the openly accepted and announced process of selection nor is it supposed to be.</p>
<p>Oh my gosh, give it a rest! We get it. You don’t like Greeks because they exclude people. Your point has been made. And made. And made. And then repeated.</p>
<p>Isn’t there anything else positive (philanthropy, future networking, lower housing costs, friendships, leadership positions) or negative (drinking, isolation, hazing) to talk about?</p>
<p>I think the people who keep pointing out the exclusiveness of Greeks do so because the defenders in fact, don’t seem to get it, when they compare them to musical groups, sports teams, etc. Some of us just don’t think that colleges should officially sponsor organizations that are not egalitarian (especially when they’re not meritocratic, either). We get that some people see no problem with this. It’s one thing for a group of people to decide who they want to be friends with–it’s something else to have a whole system built on having to impress people to be accepted into the most socially desirable fraternities and sororities. Again, it appears that at some colleges, that isn’t what Greeks are about. But, hey, at some schools that is what it’s about. And I would say that at schools where that is the case–where Greeks dominate the social scene–the other negatives are likely to be greater, too.</p>
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<p>Actually, I think it is you that does not seem to get it. I was totally against sororities when I was in college. I never attended one single sorority event in a school very greek oriented. </p>
<p>Two of my three children are independent. But S had a very good experience as a fraternity brother. They may even have saved his life. When he wanted to join, I kept an open mind, even though I was against the greek system. I learned it could actually be a very positive experience for a student. </p>
<p>I have experienced far worse exclusionary and cliquey things in my children’s involvement in theater, dance and musical groups from elementary school through college.</p>
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<p>Good for you both.
But, what about those who were rejected by your son’s frat that never got to have this wonderful experience? Why was your son allowed to have this when others were denied?</p>
<p>What do you think the rejected student’s parents would have to say about this?</p>
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And repeated yet again…</p>
<p>Soze, you seem to have a hard time with the concept that not everybody is going to like or want to hang around with everybody else, and that’s a universal truth regardless of Greek presence or not.</p>
<p>To the stereotype of the dumb, superficial sorority girl who chooses friends based on looks and money - if such girls exist, what’s the difference if they reject you from Kappa Chi whatever or if they just don’t invite you to sit at lunch or go out for coffee? Isn’t that equally “rejection”? And if they are so superficial and not worth getting to know, why would that rejection sting?</p>
<p>“But, what about those who were rejected by your son’s frat that never got to have this wonderful experience? Why was your son allowed to have this when others were denied?”</p>
<p>What about when girls reject guys? (or vice versa). You don’t always get to be with the ones you want.</p>
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<p>Yes, let’s talk about this. My negative gut reaction is not about exclusiveness - that’s fact of life, as cold and heartless as it may sound.</p>
<p>I am more concerned about this “animal house” image I am carrying. Every fraternity seems to talk about philanthropy and what not, but in reality, most of their activities seem to revolve around drinking and parties. I read countless reviews on various web sites where students come and provide reviews of their own school. I have yet to see a single student statement about the Greek community that talks about philanthropy, etc. ALL the comments are about partying, drinking, hooking up, and other such things that further strengthen the stereotypes. In fact, the only place where you hear about Greeks involved in community projects, charitable actions etc are the their web sites, and ON THIS THREAD. I almost feel that all these “feel good stuff” is about 1% of their activity, and the real raison d’etre is all about immature teenagers getting together and getting hammered. </p>
<p>I know it all depends on the school, but still, why do we keep coming across all these that keep reinforcing all the stereotypes. Why is it that fraternities are ALWAYS considered as an epicenter of drinking and partying in ALL the schools where they exist? Are there any fraternity that defines its core value AWAY from partying? Are there fraternities social group activities do not involve parties?</p>
<p>OK. All this sounds pretty biased. I am open to re-education, please share with me some realistic picture of what really goes on in the Greek community. My son is likely to go to a school with heavy duty Greek scene, and I wonder what he will encounter.</p>
<p>soze–funny that you singled out what you did in entry #295, but not this
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