<p>On this site, I would agree…and in real life, I must admit, seeing puberty from the guys perspective has been illuminating to say the least. All those late-night talks with my girlfriends were such a waste…teeange boys really do say what they mean! (Totally off topic, but this thread always gets so nasty!)</p>
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OK, but which kind of system is the norm, and which is the exception? That’s the problem I’m having with this discussion.</p>
<p>In another discussion about the Princeton eating clubs, somebody noted that “only” about 20% of students tried to get into one of the selective eating clubs but failed to do so. I thought that was a pretty big number, even if many of them ended up in one of the non-selective eating clubs. It means that there is an institutionalized social hierarchy. Other schools don’t have this, and this is something that matters to some people.</p>
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<p>Denise, it MAY be cliquish at those places where the Kappas don’t talk to the Thetas and the Thetas would never deign to talk to a ChiO and all that other childish nonsense - often associated with schools that aren’t exactly academic powerhouses to begin with. It’s NOT cliquish at those places where people have friends in all other houses and / or non-Greeks and no one thinks twice about it. It would really be helpful if you would stop assuming that every campus is like the first.</p>
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<p>It only matters what it is at the campus that your particular kid is at, IMO. To me, “normal laid back” is the norm, and over-the-top-SEC-style is the exception that makes me roll my eyes. I’m sure an SEC kid / parent feels differently!</p>
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<p>So if your kid’s frat had a chapter at another school that was excluding kids based on race, class, religion, etc. You’d be ok with that as long as they didn’t do it at your kid’s school?_</p>
<p>soze, all decisions related to selection are held completely confidential and are NEVER known/confirmed to people outside of the selection committee. Not even all of the members, chapter advisors will know what happened during the selection nights. And speaking for national organizations, they do not discriminate based on religion, race, financial aid status. Ability to pay is even assumed since the PNM is going through the recruitment. At some schools, are there groups that pick a certain kind of young woman/man? Yes. But you are so quick to assume that they are weeding out people that they don’t want as opposed to picking the people that stood out as someone worth inviting back for the next round. Not even the historically black fraternities and sororities use race as a qualification at some schools.
So an XYZ at college A would be familiar with their nationals goals, objective, etc and work to uphold them, but would have no way of knowing if the XYZs at college B are doing the same. That is why national conventions are so much fun to see the diversity of each house at different schools. The preppy girls at one school are the drama club girls at another chapter.</p>
<p>soze - how would you propose for a kid to find out how each house operates at different campus? No matter how “nice” a house is, there will always be some bad apples. Likewise for any college (or institution) around the world, they may want to operate in the best way possible, but there is no guarantee that everyone who belongs to that instituion would always behave as such. What you are expecting of any institution is just not reasonable, and I don´t believe anything your son could do would be able to live up to your expecation.</p>
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<p>Soze, they’d be in violation of the national rules / charter for doing so. So I’m going to assume that they aren’t violating those rules until proven otherwise.</p>
<p>Like any other sorority, there are undoubtedly weak chapters of my sorority on some campuses. So? If I like the girls at ABC house at College X, why should it matter to me that at College Y, they’re known as the jock house (and I’m not a jock) or the party girls (and I’m not a partier) or their house can never attract a full pledge class? It would seem to me that the person who says, “I don’t want to join ABC here at College X because at some other college, they’re the loser house” is doing precisely the kind of stereotyping you abhor.</p>
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<p>What you are suggesting is rather like saying, “My kid’s school is part of an athletic conference, and if some other school in that athletic conference has questionable or shady recruiting practices, it should reflect on my kid.”</p>
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<p>Soze - I have said this before, but as someone very familiar with the process, I can assure you that discussion of someone’s race, religion, ethnic background, perceived amount of money, etc. was absolutely not brought up in membership selection. At all. Descriptions of a girl were only for placement purposes (“she was the tall blonde girl wearing the red dress who sat next to the fireplace”). Descriptions of her personality were limited to the scope of discussions that she had with the active members during the parties (“she was bubbly, enthusiastic, engaged … thoughtful, quiet” … etc). Other discussions about personal characteristics were only held in the context of finding other active members who might want to meet her (“she’s from Boston … oh, make sure Mary gets to meet her next time around, she’s from Boston too”). Honestly, the process resembles the process that I’ve gone through as a hiring manager screening a bunch of candidates more so than anything else. </p>
<p>I know you want desperately to believe that it’s a bunch of girls all sitting around tittering that “did you get a load of that dress? And she’s from East Bumble! OMG, how could we ever allow someone from East Bumble to join! Better blackball her now!” but it really isn’t. What you don’t seem to understand is that the girls in the house <em>want</em> to find new girls / new friends. That’s the goal of the whole enterprise, just like the company wants to hire new employees. You look for reasons to include, not exclude.</p>
<p>Furthermore, soze, you act as if self-segregation doesn’t happen on non-greek campuses. I just read an illuminating article about how difficult it is for non-white, non-Jewish students to feel included on the campus. Would it be better or worse at your alma mater if Greek life exists. After all, this school has been held up by you as an example of diversity, students coming together in perfect harmony without regard to social class, background, etc. </p>
<p>[Self-Segregation</a> and Racial Identity at Brandeis | Innermost Parts](<a href=“http://innermostparts.org/2008/04/20/self-segregation-and-racial-idenity-at-brandeis/]Self-Segregation”>http://innermostparts.org/2008/04/20/self-segregation-and-racial-idenity-at-brandeis/)</p>
<p>While I was able to imagine this occurring at campuses throughout the country, even at excellent schools such as Brandeis, I am not going to las out at any one group of people to take the blame. </p>
<p>Bad things happen at good schools. Notre Dame is going through a sexual assault scandal, there are drug labs in Georgetown dorms, homophobic behavior at Rutgers, etc. It is not logical to paint the entire campus based on a few bad apples, just as it is foolish to condemn a national organization based on a few members.</p>
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<p>I joined sorority ABC at my campus. At my home state university flagship campus, some of the dumbest, ditziest girls I knew wound up joining that campus’ ABC chapter. At the state university that my sister attended, the campus’ ABC chapter had a hazing incident that resulted in a girl’s death. Obviously a terrible tragedy, and the chapter was and should be condemned for it. But I’m not sure why I would have or should have refused to join ABC at my campus, when “our” girls were nothing like that, and the furthest thing from ditzy that you could imagine. The performance and reputation of sorority ABC at a different campus is just totally irrelevant to anything.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, Others on this thread have talked about the benefits of sorority membership after graduation, when a sorority woman can network with others from other chapters. That means that you would in fact be associating yourself with the ABC sorority members who hazed a woman to death. </p>
<p>You can’t have it both ways. Either your sorority at Northwestern is associated with other chapters elsewhere that haze women to death and are filled with ditzes, or it isn’t. Don’t in one breath talk about the post-graduation benefits and in the next breath disavow any connection with other chapters.</p>
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<p>I would not be okay with it. However, I happen to know that S’s chapter of the fraternity withdrew from the national organization in the 60s because of its racially discriminatory policy. Eventually, the national organization changed its policy and eventually their chapter rejoined.</p>
<p>As I’ve repeated ad nausem, his house is extremely diverse, racially, socially, and religiously. His friends who joined the house before he did were Indian, African American, and caucasian. I have met a bunch of brothers, and about half of those I met were “persons of color.” </p>
<p>Denise, never in my life have I heard an adult volunteer information about whether they were members of a greek organization in normal conversation. The only adult I know the affiliation of happens to be a friend whose son is in my S’s class at the same college, and the friend is an alum. In chatting about what the kids were up to at school, we talked about pledging and I asked him if he had been a member and he told me about it. </p>
<p>You hang out with very strange people.</p>
<p>CardinalFang, the national organization does represent the ideals of the orgainzations. They also shut down houses, pull memberships and place chapters on probation and provide counseling and support to get chapters back in line. They produce and distribute materials regarding hazing, alcohol education, and are respected by the national organization. When something seriously goes wrong on a campus, they are there, working with the actives and the campus to make the tough decisions. I am proud to beling to an orgnization of amazing young women and it pains me to see my organizations name associated to scandals and bad behavior, but I am a lifetime member and would rather work within my organization than stand on the side acting sanctimonious.</p>
<p>“OK, but which kind of system is the norm, and which is the exception? That’s the problem I’m having with this discussion.”</p>
<p>There are something like a thousand campuses in the U.S. and Canada with at least one Greek group, so I don’t know the answer to that question. There may not be an answer.</p>
<p>I can identify one rule. In a system with more than a handful of groups in each council, there is virtually always a perceived hierarchy. The members of the different groups may be best friends with one another, one group may care more than the rest about its ranking, some potential members may deliberately seek out the lower-ranking groups…but people are generally aware that group A is popular, and group B is not so popular. When it comes to general-interest (as opposed to ethnically themed) sororities, this ranking always bears some relationship to good looks.</p>
<p>This is true even at smaller schools, intellectual schools, liberal schools, religious schools, schools without Greek houses, etc. It’s true at schools as different as Yale, Lawrence, Berkeley, Pepperdine, and Ohio Northern. But whether it’s troubling or not is solely a matter of opinion.</p>
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And while we’re on the subject, where do all the Greek-haters get the idea that all Greeks are rich? Most of the women in my sorority, and in most of the sororities on campus, came from rural blue-collar backgrounds. “What does your father do?” “He’s a coal miner.” “He’s a steelworker.” “He’s a truck driver.” I was one of the very few who came from a white-collar college background. My dad went to college but my mom didn’t. Greek diversity means economic diversity, too.</p>
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<p>Gee, do you think it could be because they take pride in their organizations and are excited about their memberships and the good things they are doing? Oh, wait a minute, I forgot … this makes them exclusionary, cliquish and elitist!</p>
<p>footballmom, I always found this true as well. As a matter of fact, I found the networking ability helped put me on a more level playing field. After all, my mother worked in a post office and my dad worked construction. I came from a small town on 800 people, none of them rich, famous or powerful. I didn’t have the family connections from old money or from being chums with such and such at boarding school. My sorority connections got me into a few front doors in banking that might not have happened otherwise. I wasn’t born with a silver spoon in my mouth, and being wealthy wasn’t a prerequisite for success during rush. Sometimes I feel like some people are so angry about this on CC because it is one aspect of college that cannot be manipulated by tests, tutors, summer programs, etc.</p>
<p>^^^I think you hit the nail on the head Mizzbee…this is one aspect of the college process where there is very little control over the outcome…unless the potential new member is a legacy and even then, there are no guarantees. My D did “rush” this past fall and she is very happy with the one she got. She goes to a very competitive school, both academically and with recruitment. There are ALL KINDS of girls in her sorority. She has made some great friends and yes, she has had a philanthropy event the past 3 of 4 weeks. She was required to participate in all of them and also get 10 additional philanthropy hours per semester that are not associated with her sorority. It has been a very rewarding and positive experience for her.</p>
<p>I think the resentment against greeks is very deep seeded, based on negative perceptions which were developed during one’s own college experience. Maybe some counseling is in order.</p>