@bookreader Can you come up with a source for the statistics you cite? They are WILDLY different than those I’ve read. For example, RAINN says that 1 in 33 American men have experienced a rape or attempted rape. 10% of rape victims are male.https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence
RAINN says 1 in 9 girls has been sexually abused or assaulted by the age of 18 and 1 in 53 boys has. In other words, 82% of victims under 18 are female. https://www.rainn.org/statistics/children-and-teens
Yes, boys can be abused too…and are. But most of the people molesting male children are men, not women.
Stop teaching young girls to be compliant and “sweet.” That goes for young boys too, though they don’t seem to have quite the cultural conditioning in that department (imho). But does that mean that every person who hugs you as a kid has some nefarious purpose? No, of course not. This is a tricky issue in that sense. I think you teach kids to trust their instincts and you validate them when they have a concern. You don’t gaslight or minimize them.
I am also not a fan of forced hugging, kissing, etc.
I have been thinking about this a lot lately, with so many people (women, but men, too) telling their stories. Why did they stay silent for so long? For so many reasons. Why are they choosing to speak now? Because finally, they feel that someone might listen. Or that the men who did this to them should not be/no longer be in positions of power. Because they feel a bond with those who have been through similar situations. For so many reasons.
I hope this is the beginning of the end. I know it won’t be, of course. Power corrupts, and the powerful will continue to abuse. But what I hope with all my heart is that people will speak out, people will listen, people will act in a way that results in at least some perpetrators getting in trouble for what they do.
We can take back our bodies by teaching our children … girls AND boys … to respect themselves and others … to speak out when they are disrespected … not to back down. We can take back our bodies by insisting that those who abuse are held accountable and are appropriately punished. We can take back our bodies by stopping the “boys will be boys” excuses. We can take back our bodies by teaching our kids that they are not objects to be used by others.
Mother of two sons here, ages 25 and 28. Oddly enough, the way we addressed their food allergies from early childhood had unintended benefits. We never asked them to eat anything if they turned it down. Their “no” was the end of the discussion – no questions asked, no need to give reasons. We were trying to lay the emotional groundwork for them to have the confidence to refuse food from a friend, teacher, waiter, in the future in case of an allergen concern. But fortunately, they were also introduced to the idea that “no” is indeed the final word.
We also never said “no” to them unless we were ready to physically back it up. I don’t mean corporal punishment, but taking away a stick one of them is swinging, or stepping in to block a blow, leaving the park, etc. It was a real PITA to follow through every freaking time, so we chose our battles very carefully. The upshot was a pretty laid-back upbringing where they didn’t hear a lot of corrections but did respond to the ones we felt mattered enough to make.
Fast forward to late teens / early twenties. One of them needed space for the other, and the other wouldn’t get out of his face. I weighed in to get him to back off and he says “You can’t make me.” One of my hugest parenting gambles was when I said “You’re right. I can’t.” and then let silence and his better nature do the rest. And hopefully it showed them both that you do the right thing even when – especially when – you’re the strongest one in the room.
Women and girls seem to me to be conditioned to not make a scene or be loud because they might be “embarrassing.”
My husband has domestic violence in his extended family. The girls have been taught how to throw a punch and how to get out of various holds and they still practice this. And how to yell.
@ roethilburger I don’t think there’s a specific “mental illness” that is characterized by incest. Incest happens due to power and proximity and sometimes pedophilia.
But even if there is a specific mental illness that makes you target blood relatives–that does NOT mean the urge can’t be controlled.
Many mentally ill people have urges they know are wrong–or at least know are not socially acceptable. They may have a harder time than the rest of us refraining from certain activity, but that doesn’t mean they can’t stop themselves.
In murder cases, for example, we don’t allow everyone who is mentally ill to escape punishment on that ground. We require that the person also not realize that what he is doing is wrong. See e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%27Naghten_rules
Some people have a very strong urge to jump when they are on a precipice. Yet, they can refrain from doing so.
So it is for many other acts which people feel an urge to do.
I was a working woman in my late 20s, wearing a conservative office dress, when a guy sat next to me (leaning up against me, actually) on a commuter train and proceeded to pleasure himself under his newspaper in such a way that the results ended up all over my skirt.
I never sat in a window seat on a train again unless the aisle seat was occupied by another woman, even if it meant standing up for an hour despite plenty of empty seats in the car. But I’ve always been angry that I needed to do this. Why should I have to inconvenience myself just because other people are jerks?
Jackson Katz could add “Don’t take the window seat on a train unless the aisle seat is occupied by a woman” to his list.
Why didn’t I scream or say anything, you might ask? The answer is simple. He might have had a knife. And that would be a lot worse than a disgusting experience and an unexpected dry cleaning bill.
Incest would fall under paraphilic disorders. While incest might not be specifically called out in the DSM, some psychiatrists recognize over 100 paraphilic disorders. The DSM, by design, does not attempt an exhaustive list of paraphilic disorders. I don’t think a culture change would have protected the OP. The culture strongly condemned incest even back in the Mad Men era.
I think it’s more of a “Culture changes may prevent some instances of molestation but won’t prevent all of them” vibe.
Where I get uncomfortable and confused is when we judge actions that took place decades ago by the standards of today.
Like many women, I could cite multiple examples of situations where I was subjected to what would today be considered sexual harassment or molestation. But in post #29, I deliberately chose to describe an incident that was outside the boundaries of acceptability even at the time when it took place (which was the 1980s). I could also have described incidents that would be considered unacceptable now but weren’t thought of that way at the time when they took place (like being hit on by my immediate superior at a job). I’m not sure what to think about those incidents.
I don’t know if cultural standards have really changed all that much. You could go back a long ways and have trouble finding a Western culture that accepted a 35 year old man dating a 14 year old girl, including taking her back to his home in the woods and getting her drunk. Ages of consent and other laws came into practice to formalize societal values that were in place long ago, and became necessary because we increasingly agreed to limit our own right to enact justice and give that over to the state.
Sure, in the middle ages a parent may have encouraged their 14 year old peasant daughter to put up with the 40 year old Lord’s advances because it offered her some slight chance of a step up in life. But even then, it was a conscious acceptance of something repulsive because they felt trapped by few options, not a societal norm of what was acceptable behavior. Just imagine how the 40 year old farmer would be treated for getting the 14 year old noble girl drunk and molesting her. We’ve known for a long time what was right and wrong, even if power structures allowed a minority to get away with the wrong.
Cultural standards in the United States may not have condoned relationships between 14-year-olds and men two decades older, but they once condoned a relationship between a boss and his secretary – something that would now be considered unacceptable because it involves an employee and that employee’s direct supervisor.
And the casual term “copping a feel” was used to describe forms of behavior that were, at the time, considered minor issues but are now taken more seriously.
There was also a time when no instance of sex between a husband and wife could be considered rape, regardless of the circumstances.
You’re misrepresenting what I said. I think some people won’t modify their behavior in the absence of psychiatric treatment or prison time and I think your relative is one of those people.
It’s so weird to me to read about Aunt Ethel hugging her nephew in the thread about sexual abusers. I grew up in a culture where hugs and kisses from relatives are normal and expected, and refusing one is rude unless you have a cold or something. In many cultures frequent hugs between friends or even acquaintances are completely normal and there’s nothing sexual in them. Please don’t equate any touch with sexual abuse. It’s a very puritanical and very WASP-centered approach. And if you meet a man from a different culture and he wants to hug you or kiss on the cheek, speak out if you’re not comfortable with this, but don’t cry wolf immediately.
I am a hugger (and have always been), but never hug if the person shows any reticence reluctance to being hugged.
If our kids said no, I don’t want (e.g. to be part of the wedding party), that was the final decision and we didn’t try to change it. We allowed them to make choices and supported their choices (as long as it didn’t endanger their health or safety). We taught our kids to yell loudly at the top of their voices, “You’re not my mommy or daddy, go away!” The mechanic heard this in full voice when he tried to back out my car when D was in it and 2 years old.
I think a big part of the issue is choice and protectors. I had a married guy making suggestive & gross remarks to me when I was with a large group (the others couldn’t hear him) and I was able to get up, go to the bathroom and then take a seat as far as possible from the guy and have my friends and co-workers serve as buffers.
When someone else was stalking me (and I was 18), I was able to quit my job and never return because my parents supported my decision and the employer broke his promise that I would NEVER be working alone in a small shop in Waikiki. If I HAD to have the job and the minimal money it brought in, I could not have quit that job unless I had another one lined up and would have had to put up with the terrible working conditions and a lying boss who didn’t do what he promised to protect his workers.
Poverty and vulnerability limit choices and options and make people more likely to be prey to predators. They are forced to work alone, late at night, may need to depend on public transportation or others (who may not be reliable) for rides, etc. They need the money and can’t summarily quit because conditions are far from ideal.
@yucca10#37, I was raised the same way. I love my affectionate extended family but am much more self-contained than they are – puritanical, if you’d like to apply the term to a foul-mouthed fiftysomething crone of Slavic extraction. I feel very strongly that the person who wants less contact is the one who gets to pick the climate of an interaction. There’s nothing wrong with hugs and kisses, but I do take issue with them being “expected.” Touch does not automatically equate sexual abuse, but overriding someone’s wish not to be touched is abusive.