Life can be complicated. Maybe not the time to make light of the issue.
I actually think he’s serious…
Did you all see the newspaper article about the jogger in Salt Lake City who carried a knife on her morning runs? A guy comes up and gropes her. She got a couple of good swipes on him before he got away.
Sadly I think this must have happened to her before and that must be why she carries a knife.
I agree that standards were different in the past. They weren’t right, but they were certainly different. I am not talking about old guys with young girls, strangers groping women, or that sort of thing. I am talking about guys hitting on women … in the workplace or elsewhere … in ways that are now considered unacceptable.
In the past, the boss could hit on the women who worked for him. Not only was it okay, but he would be considered quite the man by those around him. I recall when it began to change. I worked at a company where women started to sue the men who promised them promotions if the women would sleep with them. Some of the women did sleep with the men, and when they didn’t get what was promised - or when they realized that what had happened was not okay - they sued. I recall that the buzz was: Hey, they did it willingly - their fault. When some of them got good settlements, the buzz was that they were in it for the money all along. I am not condoning any of this. I am simply stating the way it was.
What those lawsuits did, though, was begin to change the environment. Things got better for women. I feel like they have been slowly improving over the years in major corporations, although things are not yet perfect.
It sounds like maybe things never began that trajectory of improvement in Hollywood or in politics … perhaps because there is no traditional HR type role like in a corporation? The shake-up is happening now, and the allegations are “old” because those people are still in positions of power … so what happened in the past is still relevant.
In some cases there are “happy” endings, in just as many the woman who complained is further victimized by higher ups. I like how it ends though - she’s still wearing pants.
P.S. One of my daughters was sexually harassed at work and complained to HR. The man had to go through some kind of training. My D was let go shortly after because her position was “eliminated”. The advertised for her position on Craig’s List 3 days after she left! She considered going to the EEOC but didn’t want it to consume her life. This is why we don’t every buy Under… armour.
Decades ago, my husband was saved from molestation by a timely ring of the molester’ s doorbell. DH didn’t know what to do after he ran out of the house, so he told his best friend. Together, they took revenge on the guy by calling him on the phone at odd hours and saying disgusting things to him for mont. Neither boy told an adult for years, and yet that was the one thing they should have done.
Human nature isn’t always pretty. Molestation, assault and harassment will happen. We can keep our kids and selves out of harm’s way as well as possible, but bad things will still happen. One of the most empowering things we can do is to tell. There is no shame on a victim, and the more we speak up, the safer someone else will be down the line.
DH and I wonder to this day how many of his attempted molester’s victims weren’t saved by the bell.
I grew up in NYC and groping on the bus and subway - and street actually - was not an uncommon occurrence. My earliest memory of it was when I was quite young - maybe 8 or so - and standing in the front subway car, looking out the front window, which I loved to do as a kid. My mom was seated nearby and a guy came up behind me and stood there, like he was also looking out the front car window, which is not weird, people share that spot. But he was brushing up against me, and my mom called me over to her to sit by her. I remember being mad and not wanting to give up my window spot, and I wouldn’t come. She got really angry? firm? and insisted I come sit by her, so I did, even though I didn’t know why. Later she told me that she did that because of that man standing behind me, pushing against me. My mom was not a timid person, she spoke up on my behalf in other situations several times, but this time she didn’t tell the MAN to get lost, she told ME to move. She was not from NYC, maybe if she had been she would have told him off or something, but I think she was just protecting me without risking a confrontation.
As I got older, I avoided these men, and the situations where they could get close to me. I took the (city) bus to school from 6th grade through 8th, and the subway from 9th through 12th. I had plenty of opportunities to learn where and when these men would try to grope, rub, press against…whatever. Avoiding being trapped in corners, standing near women, etc became as natural as not standing too close to the edge of the platform when the train was coming in, and finding a column to put behind me, making sure no one was right behind me. Most NYC kids do that too, you’ll notice, because of the (rare but scary) danger of being pushed off the platform.
I was groped on the street a couple of times…one time, again I was pretty young maybe 12, a man ran up behind me, did the thing Donald Trump bragged about on that tape, and ran off before I could react. No one was nearby at the time, though I was actually within 100 feet of my apartment building entrance. That could have been an impulsive hit and run or it could have been planned, I guess I’ll never know.
So. In my twenties this hardly happened anymore, because apparently these men like to choose younger girls who probably are too scared to make a fuss or challenge them or whatever. It’s a good bet to make, for them.
But in my 20s, two men did try. I was walking on the lower east side and a man came up and groped me in broad daylight with people around. He was “off” - to me appeared drunk or really high. I turned and pushed him, hard, so he fell off the curb into the gutter. I yelled something at him, I don’t recall what, I only recall the adrenaline I felt. He actually got back up and came at me again, and I pushed him again. His being drunk or high is all that let me do that, physically. And though I did it without thinking, on some level I felt pretty safe with so many bystanders. He did get the initial grope in, but I more than “got him back”. It felt SO good.
Another time was late night, I had been at a bar and drinking, though I was not “drunk”. The guy who approached me and groped - right on Broadway. I mention that I’d been drinking because however much I had it was enough to throw caution to the wind and rather than retreat, turn around and confront the guy, then slam him into the grate of a closed store. I did that, told him to leave me the %^$# alone, and he went the other way. I remember that adrenaline rush too.
Both times felt to me like the revenge of the little helpless kid on the train, bus, street. It felt SO GOOD to not only yell at the men committing these assaults but physically harm them (though TBH it was more a pushing away from me than an attempt to hurt them, and both walked away basically unscathed). I like to think they reconsidered assaulting the next victim, but I’ll never know.
I sometimes wonder if I reacted that way because in between being a young teen and my 20s, I was raped. And because it happened abroad and for various other reasons, I could not press charges, report, whatever, and I felt very unfinished and angry about it for a long time.
So I guess that’s how I took back my body, by literally pushing men away, knocking them down, and telling them to leave me the 3456 alone.
I am very glad that I can avoid public transportation. All the instances I have heard of personally have been on public transportation: masturbation, taking out the thing, rubbing, etc.
The good thing is that finally there seems to be some awareness and that in the workplace things that were common place back when I first started work (and women had to figure out how to avoid handle the situations because there was no one to complain to about sexual harassment - we just talked amongst ourselves about certain creeps) are not acceptable any more. I know I had more than one uncomfortable situation and every woman I worked with did. Hopefully things will improve more.
Many years ago (in the 70s) I worked at a company where some of the men had naked posters and calendars of women in their offices. This was the accounting department of an oil company and it was not something I had encountered in other workplaces. I told one manager quite pleasantly that it made me and the other female employees uncomfortable coming into his office. I was basically told I would just have to deal with it. That evening I went shopping - at the time a magazine had recently come out in the UK that had centerfolds of naked men. I had never purchased it before but bought the most recent one and the store found me a couple of earlier ones. I hung the centerfolds behind my desk where I did not have to see them but everyone who came to my desk to talk to me did. The horrified looks while I politely asked “can I help you?” were priceless.
Within 24 hours management asked if the men removed their pictures would I remove mine. I graciously agreed (looking back maybe I should have said they could “just deal with it”.) I guess being made to feel uncomfortable opened their eyes a bit.
@jonri - I found the stat for males here: https://1in6.org/get-information/the-1-in-6-statistic/
I also came across this article in Slate which notes even higher numbers: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html
The 1 in 4 stat for women was pounded into my head when I was in college. Now, I went to an all woman college so maybe we were given somewhat biased info. I don’t know.
A co-worker of mine did the same thing, before I started working there and it was the late 1980s! She was told to put up with the “girly” calendars (they were suggestive but not nude) and instead she got a centerfold from a gay men’s magazine (that had the men photographed with erect penises, unlike Playgirl) and hung it over her desk. The girly calendars went away and she had a funny story to tell.
^When I was an engineer, I spent nearly a year making weekly trips to a construction site. Lots of the construction guys had posters up in the back rooms and dank corners where they were set up. One day, I went to talk to one of the supervisors and directly over his shoulder someone had a tool chest opened to a near life-size crotch shot from some rag like Hustler or Oui. I don’t know if the positioning was intentional for my benefit.
It was sociologically interesting to get a behind-the-scenes view of their work-a-day world. There were some women on the crews. I’m sure it was difficult for them.
My story is a bit unusual because it was from an architect’s office. Most offices have enough LGBTQ people around that the whole “macho girly calendar culture” is suppressed. Not that office.
@HouseChatte yes, you’re right, but I think it’s on the person who feels uncomfortable to explain this. I know that might not be easy for a kid, and they need to be taught how to say this politely without blaming the relative in question. When I was little, my great-grandma used to express her adoration by pinching my cheek, and I hated this, but she was already very old and I felt it was useless to argue. Luckily for them, none of the grandparents tried to do this to my kid!
@sylvan8798 , I worked in a manufacturing plant & had to put up with similar pictures … very graphic stuff. I dealt with it by pretending I didn’t care. The truth was, I felt it should not be allowed to be there, but I felt that I had to put up with it so I didn’t appear weak and whiny. It was difficult, and that environment was part of the reason I left. I had a really good future there … but inside, I was conflicted about the way I had to act and the things I had to accept in order to do well in the job.
And that’s why women don’t rise to the same level as men in the corporate world.
@greenwitch about 25 or so years ago, when I was in my early 20’s, I worked for a family owned company. It was pretty large, ran by two brothers and the youngest brother worked there. The elder ones were in their upper 40’s. During my first couple of weeks there, one of the owners asked me to go to lunch downstairs in the building’s cafeteria/deli. I thought nothing of it at the time. At some point, the guy brings up being married and having affairs and what was my stance on that. Being raised in a solid marriage of my parents, I was firmly against it and said thus. I knew at the end of the day, I would be leaving this job and did within a short time (maybe a week or two?). I began to hear other things. Anyhoo, a few months after I had left, a girl about my age from this office whom I had talked with a few times, called me and asked me why I left. I told her strait out. She then asked if I would write a statement to the EEOC about this family and the culture as I knew it at this company, as she had been assaulted by the elder brother and had filed a complaint. I agreed and I wrote a statement for her.
I was called to testify before a 2 lawyer EEOC panel and I tell you that the EEOC woman lawyer (there was a man too) asked every demeaning question possible and made every insinuation of how this could have been my fault or the other girls fault. How did I dress at work (I dressed very conservative and in very nice clothes) what had I done to lead them on, why would a happily married man with children want to have an affair with a 23 year old (the boss that I went to lunch with said I brought up the affair topic). Wasn’t I looking to have an affair with a rich man etc. It did not help my case that I was a very fit, attractive young lady and the EEOC cross examined me as if I was a spurned woman. That only strengthened my resolve, as one of my fictional heroines says “my courage always rises with every attempt to intimidate me”. I was surprised at the EEOC accusations and insinuations rather than fact finding.
One thing that sure would help is if women stopped leaning so quickly into value judgements against other women who do complain. At best, it’s not helpful. At worst, it says shutup. That goes for comments about appearance, dress, the suggestions it’s not that bad, and more. Thanks, @Thelma2 , for going to bat against a poor sitiation.
Funny, but I’m usually not a “sisterhood” sort, rather about merit. But on a few threads now, it jumps out how a number of women are not supportive.
One if my male relatives has handled quite a few EEOC cases and gotten quite a few nice sexual harassment settlements for his clients, male and female. In our state, I get the sense our EEOC is very attuned and has found many cases meritorious enough to proceed to court.
Agree. I never had to “take back by body” both because I was extremely fortunate but also because I was raised by a strong early feminist 50’s mom who worked full time while raising us who taught be to be a very strong woman who owned her own brain, mouth and body. My H was also raised by a strong 1950’s working enlightened mom who did a good job raising him. Hopefully we did a good job with our boys… I think we did, but these days you just never know what someone is going to deem harassment.