<p>No, unless the sib helped raise your H. Helping one’s aged parents is part of what many societies call the generational compact–especially those that do not have Social Security or pensions (or retirement accounts). Our parents take care of us when we are young and weak, and in turn we take care of them when they are old and feeble. And taking care of your dad is part of the financial obligations you should mention to your relatives, if it comes to that (although I would hope the financial consultation would be acceptable).</p>
<p>I don’t get family members. Why would they discount good advice just because it came from their closest and dearest ? Do they not realize that they have to pay a lot for the said advice if they are not fortunate enough to be related to you ? </p>
<p>This happened to me last year, when I was trying to help my son to organize his life & projects. He was not receptive. Finally one day I had enough and told him the know how he was getting from me for free, companies pay $$$ for. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. </p>
<p>I don’t know the situation regarding your dad. But does he need help because of the natural condition of old age or a profligate lifestyle or unwise choices, which seems to be the case with your h’s sibling. I think that figures into the situation.</p>
<p>munchkin-
Come help organize my life! I’ll pay you!! Yes-- our kids/family should appreciate what others pay for our services that they get for free!</p>
<p>My dads situation is totally different. He always lived within his means-- had his finances all in a row, but, without going into detail, he is living off his investments, annuities, pension and Soc Sec, and has a lot of expenses. His biggest investment/asset is his house, and needless to say, its value is decreasing. Thats another story, but he and my mom were always very frugal, and I learned from them. He’s just frail, and I agree with what Marite said above. I have been taking care of him since my mom passed away almost 5 yrs ago.</p>
<p>Marite-
Your comments about the elderly are appreciated. As for my H’s sib, well, even though he is slightly older and probably <em>thinks</em> he helped raise my H , it simply ain’t so! When they both got $ to cover living expenses in college, my H bought food or saved it-- his sib spent it on clothes and then turned to my H to feed him! Grrrrrr!! This pattern of high living on his sib’s part is longstanding!!</p>
<p>All of their patterns are longstanding. If your H can’t give a clear “no” to his older sib, could he at least learn to say, “I have to work it out with my wife.” You’ll be the heavy, but oh well.</p>
<p>Also be brutally honest with youself about what the brother has done positive over many years towards the parents. In some families, one sib gives plenty of money, but the other fixes the screens and does more hand-holding, putting in more time. Knowing you (cyber-ly), my guess is you gave more of both, but I’m just saying.</p>
<p>I admire Marite’s advice because she’s noticing there’s a check-and-balance between what you can offer out today, against the future needs of your kids, their emergencies and your emergencies, plus retirement. I hope that’s not hiding behind our kids.</p>
<p>Plus UCSD_dad’s concept, and others suggesting things like a one-time fiscal consultation, self-help finance books and more. Give them a fishing rod but not an endless IOU for tuna fish. Something like that. Easier said than done.</p>
<p>^^ LOL p3t-- I am always the heavy! That’s nothing new!</p>
<p>I will do my best to follow your advice and think of some positive attributes of the moocher sib. He is a nice guy, but as for the other stuff— well no, he doesn’t help with the repairs and such (he tried a time or two, but was more trouble than he was worth-- scattered, disorganized, had to be picked up at the airport and driven around, or took the car and was gone for hours without brigning the car back, etc etc) he has driven the other (oldest) sib to distraction!! Thats why we were out there this fall, planning to help the oldest sib (who IMO should be nominated for sainthood–she is a gem!) with some things she needed done and also to visit with someone from their childhood, when my H broke his ankle/leg! The oldest, sib who lived out there, said thats something she’d have expected of the moocher sib, not my H! The hospital trips are usually a part of any visit from the moocher, hypochondriac sib and his family-- not us. </p>
<p>I know this sounds terrible, but the moocher sib likes to take credit for the things the other two sibs do. Hes a bit self focused (well, that should have been obvious by now). So, he (the moocher sib) is very entertaining. H is the showboater, we pay the bills. Not my choice, but I choose my battles.</p>
<p>I am still trying to think of more postive things. He (moocher sib) does seem to care about “family”. That is good.</p>
<p>How about approaching them with the book, counseling session, whatever- tell them you are aware of their employment issues and need to warn them to not plan to get money from you (way before they ever ask) as you have also hit some tight times- you could even tell them you lost all your Lehman for example- in other words, warn them not to plan to come to you before they do it!</p>
<p>Then instead of turning them down in their moment of desperation you are giving them advance notice.</p>
<p>A sibling inherited over $100k from a non family source; previously sib had been homeless and living with another sib. In short order the homeless one went through over $60k! The older one jumped in and went in a place for the homeless sib so they would not be sharing a home again!</p>
<p>somemom and momof3-
Thanks for the links to those other threads. I am sorry I missed them-- they are defitintely on topic!!</p>
<p>I just ran the idea (in general-- with DH , suggesting it as a holiday gift for his sib) of paying a fixed sum to a financial advisor for a one time consult (and the $$ gets paid to the financial advisor, not to the sib for the advisor!) for the sib. I even suggested that DH could fly up to go to the mtg with sib (or if it is from a third party like through USAA they could do a teleconference, though I doubt sib will let DH know too much about the ins and outs of his finances). MY H said he’d think about it. I guess thats a start… BTW, DHs bro is well aware that we lost all the $$$ from Lehman Bros. stock from the inheritance. Sib used his shares to buy a new fancy expensive motorcycle. Did he sell the old one? No. “The market is soft-- I won’t get what I could for it” was his excuse. Sheesh. Bull…</p>
<p>** almost forgot-- somemom-- thats unbelievable about your sib! Looks like we all have these relatives!</p>
<p>One logical caution you could use with your DH- why would a bailout for XYZ emergency this month make any difference long term- if they are just going to come back for more or go broke any way, save your money ;)</p>
<p>We had a family member some 20 years ago who got into a real estate mess and almost lost their home due to a series of unfortunate happenings, another family member helped them save their home- that original family has needed no further help, they are ‘fine’ but because of the help they also own a home which has appreciated over 20 years- and no, they did not refi it and take out cash :)</p>
<p>I am all for helping when the help is a one time thing that will make a difference. If it won’t really help the situation then you are not really helping you are wasting your family’s money and delaying the inevitable.</p>
<p>There are times to help and times when saying NO is helping.</p>
<p>Try to bring your DH around to that perspective- just like an intervention for an addict says they must hit bottom by understanding the consequences of continuing their behaviour, an over-spender may need to hit bottom to change his ways. An advance warning could take the intensity of being hit with a “save me from the crisis” viewpoint.</p>
<p>Thanks, somemom, will do. These are all great suggestions. In the past, one of the additional excuses/request for bialout is that in this sibs line of business, he has to maintain a high level security clearance, and if one declares bankrupcy it jeopardizes their clearance. Not sure if they can work with consumer credit bureaus or if this is also likely to jeopardize the clearance.</p>
<p>I have that situation in my family (my close, adult relative, now age 50) - and here is how I’ve handled it. I have a $750 “loan” outstanding – he gives me a huge sob story about how much he needs money for his rent & promises to pay it back right away. I “lend” the money, on condition that he repays $50 every 2 weeks. He won’t call me again because he isn’t making the payments. Finally, maybe a year or so later he pays me back. Another month goes by and I get the same story - can’t pay the rent. So I relend the same $750, same terms. Same story: he only calls me when he needs money, but he won’t call if he is “in default” on money already lent, because he knows I’ll bring up the fact that he’s never made any payments as promised. </p>
<p>I don’t care about the money. I never “lend” money that I expect to get paid back. I just don’t want him bugging me, and as long as he “owes” me, I’ve got the upper hand. Maybe I’m lucky that he doesn’t bug me if he already has an outstanding debt – or maybe its just that is what I need to have in place so he can’t lay a guilt trip on me, and he knows me well enough to anticipate that – I don’t know. But it works for me, especially because I know of times in the interim when he did get some cash, and could have paid me something, and didn’t. </p>
<p>My attitude is that he want a loan, I’ve extended credit - but if he wants to keep borrowing from me, then he needs to establish good credit with me. If he had paid back the money promptly when he could, then who knows? I might be willing to lend more. But so far he hasn’t passed the $750 test. </p>
<p>(Unlike my son. My son once needed $300 to make his rent, short term – it was just a matter of his rent coming due before his paycheck came – and my son wanted me to lend him the money with a bank transfer, as we use the same bank. I think my son repaid me in full within 5 days… he really was just waiting for that paycheck and I was top priority when he received it. Needless to say, my son has excellent credit with mom).</p>
<hr>
<p>Oh, one more thing – whenever my moocher relative has given me a sob story, I’ve also offered to pay him for odd jobs around my house – I have a TON of work that needs to be done (garage cleanout, etc.) …but there’s always an excuse as to why he can’t get to my place (we live in different cities)… but somehow he manages to get here really quick when there is money being lent.</p>
<p>I have some experience with similar issues. I think once everyone says “no more” the people have to start to get their act together. This, however, is NOT a “peacekeeping” strategy. I had a relative not speak to me for years because I did not “loan” money. This was when I really did not have extra, way back when, but I did have a job. I was annoyed that I was expected to live lower than the already low lifestyle I was living to help. This relative could have worked at many jobs just to make money, but would not.</p>
<p>This relative also never lived in the type of studio apartment that I lived in (I had roaches for pets then.)</p>
<p>jym626, I know you are a professional, but wouldn’t you work at anything if you needed money for your family? Why are these other people too good for that?</p>
<p>The sib claims to be looking for work and trying to get some contract work (though its never clear if he manages to close those deals). He had a long commute to the previous job (when he wasnt either working from home or taking care of supposedly ill self or supposedly ill family members) and the spouse has not held a job in years, and even then typically for no more than a few months without coming down with some major medical malady. I am wondering when they are going to run out of diseases (sorry-- my patience has run very thin in this regard).</p>
<p>And yes, as a professional it is really hard to see and have to deal with this stuff in ones own family. I have no problem saying no and setting limits and expecting them to take ownership of their own financial messes. I am not willing to enable their unhealthy behaviors. It is my H who is the constant soft touch-- who has trouble saying no to anyone and anything – so he gets caught in the middle. He gets pressured by his sib for a handout and he gets pressured by me not to do it. So, I am trying to find ways to be poistive and supportive and to leave any conflict out of our house. This isn’t and shouldnt be our problem and shouldnt cause any disagreement in our house.</p>
<p>As anothermom2 said, it the peacekeeping issue that has me concerned. How these relatives have the nerve to be indignant because family members won’t finance their lifestyle is beyond me!!</p>
<p>And calmom-- if it was just $750 I could live with that. I might suggest this strategy to DH as an alternative to offering to pay for the financial counselor meeting (though I like that idea better–it gets him in the hands of someone else to whom he has to be accountable). When this relative asks for money, its usually in at least the four figures category. The biggest disagreement my H and I ever had was when I discovered that he had “loaned” the sib $5k-- probably about 20 years ago. In actuality the “loan” was coming from the dad, but he didnt have the cashflow at the time, so we apparently lent the $$ to the sib and the dad paid us back (sib never repaid the dad-- dad just “gifted” this sib money every year). But I wasnt initially privvy to the transaction and I was not a happy camper when I found out.</p>
<p>I want there to be no tension in our house over this, when the requests for the handouts start. I am gathering lots of good data here. It is hard to step outside and take an objective look when it is within ones family. Thanks everyone. Keep 'em coming!</p>
<p>This is not about money. It’s about life long relationship dynamics within a family and within a marriage. So long as the conversation stays focused on money, financial planning and such, this cycle will continue. Money is too often what we talk about when we can’t talk about the harder issues. </p>
<p>For you, for all of us reading, the money issue is so obvious, so clear cut. For your husband, his brother is one of the ever smaller number of people who have known him his entire life. When push comes to shove, will your husband be able to say no? He many not. You need to deal with the possibility of that reality. This may be a situation that requires a creative compromise. </p>
<p>I cannot recommend strongly enough that you and your husband get into couples counseling. Basically, so long as there is a third party to distract them (you), the two people who really need to work things out (your husband and his sibiling) will not focus on the real problem at hand. Even if your husband and his sibiling decline to work on their own relationship, you and your husband need to come up with a way of dealing with this that you can both live with instead of waiting for the coming crisis and hoping it will all work out. </p>
<p>I wish you the best of luck in this very difficult situation.</p>
<p>Wise words, pugmadkate-
I am very open to talking to a professional, especially if this causes any strife in our relationship. The tough part is that since I am in the field, I have to find someone I dont already know professionally who has a good reputation! The tough part is that it really shouldnt be our problem-- it should be the sibs problem. He and his spouse should be the ones in counseling-- to deal with their folie a deux-- their somatoform disorders and hypochondriasis, that has, sadly, turned their youngest child into a housebound agorophobe. But I dont want to disclose too much about them. The family members are happy to ask for $$ and advice when it comes to helping them with college scholarship $$ for the one functional child, but they turn a deaf ear to suggestions aabout how to get help for separation anxiety and phobias (because I truly believe they want or need to have the youngest child dependent on them). The have been unwilling to get the “right” kind of help (imo) and now 2 of their 3 children will not likely function successfully as adults (the youngest is a HS senior – now home schooled).</p>
<p>So as you see, this is a complicated mess-- and yes you are correct- it is not just about money. Throwing money at this problem will not fix it. And whe don’t have a lot of spare $$ to throw around even if we wanted to.</p>
<p>Lending (giving) money to family members is always tricky. You’ve received some great suggestions regarding books and credit counseling. If your H would not be hurt or offended that you shared the dilemma here, perhaps have him read this thread. I know for my kind hearted husband it took several “backfires” before he finally realized his financial assistance was not going to help his sib in the long run. He learned each time. He had the added pressure of a mother that asked him to help the sib. (not to mention several nieces that asked for money–the nieces were easier to not help) The most important lesson we’ve learned is that money is NEVER to be given directly to the “user.” We’ve had bills forwarded to us and purchased grocery gift cards so we know the money is being spent on necessities. </p>
<p>DH finally was tired of it all. He sent sib one final check and told sib to no longer contact him about money (or anything else since his parents are now deceased). It sounds harsh, but it took cutting off all ties for sib to finally understand my H would no longer be her personal bailout package. They did communicate recently and within a short time sib was asking for money again. When H mentioned it to me I reminded him that he vowed not to help again and suggested he remind his sib that we will have a D in college next year with a son not far behind. Our D deserves our financial support far more than sib. That gentle reminder was enough for H to stand his ground and say no. It also helped when he added up the total amount we’ve given sib over the years–enough for a year of college at least.</p>
<p>While I agree with the idea of a personal finance book as a gift (Dave Ramsey, perhaps, if the religious beliefs don’t interfere with the rest of the message), I strongly disagree with the suggestion for your DH to go to any financial/credit counseling with his relatives. I think it’s better for him to disengage from their financial issues entirely, because as you posted, it’s a no-win situation for him. The only response necessary for his brother’s requests for money is, “I’m sorry, that won’t be possible.” Lather, rinse, repeat as often as needed. Don’t explain your own financial worries. Your BIL will simply ignore or minimize them, and insist that his “needs” are more important. These do not appear to be people with whom you can have a rational discussion, so don’t try. As for your DH’s feelings of obligation, that’s something for the two of you to work out with or without help. You might try asking him if he thinks his DB would come to your, or your children’s, aid if he was gone and you were in a bind.</p>
<p>It’s her end of the year round up of books she’s recommended throughout the year.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the original article about this book has been archived and you can only read it by paying a fee. Much better to spend that money on the actual book! </p>
<p>Singletary also has on-line discussions about finances for real people and does recurring stories on giving people tools and advice to get out from under their debts…by sacrifice and hard work, not with ‘magic thinking’ or by buying foreclosures or some other goofy thing. She is the author of several books including ‘Your Money and Your Man’…which might be helpful for anyone who has a spouse with a different ‘money-style’ than you. </p>
<p>somemom’s advice above strikes me as an excellent idea. Proactive, putting them on notice… basically laying the groundwork for your position as “not-a-bank.” One conversation with them, with an offer to help when they don’t need it, can be the touchstone you reach for should they approach you for money in the future. Remind them of it should they ask for money in the future – it won’t be as though you haven’t warned them!</p>
<p>They may respond very negatively (nastily) initially… or longer. People who are used to manipulating others don’t like to find that they no longer can, so they rachet up the manipulative behavior trying to get their way, and I know this because I used to be 5 years old. :D</p>
<p>I think you have received some great advice. I would like to add a suggestion, since it is the holiday season, prehaps a general conversation about how things are tight this year, it might be a good idea to limit holiday gifts, gosh you lost so much in Lehman, kids leaving for college soon, it’s just tough financially. Perhaps that will help head off a request.</p>
<p>If a request does come in, I like the gift cards for grocery idea. If that makes it easier on your DH, and you can buy the gift cards in nominal amounts. Perhaps that would keep peace in your house (less money going out, specifically for food might be something you could live with, while DH lives with the limit and the food only). It’s not a perfect solution, but if it would limit the expense and make things workable for both you and your husband, well that’s worth something, too. I mean nominal amounts—and a monthly or annual limit of X cards.</p>