How do you handle family members who mismanage their finances and ask for handouts??

Parent Cafe
41

<p>jym626, I think you’ve got a different situation than I do in any case, because you are married and it is your husband lending money to his sib. (I"m single, its my money to lend or not) So it puts you in a bad spot to have to be naysayer. And it messes up your marriage.</p>

<p>Here’s what I suggest: you should sit down with your husband and go over finances, and then agree to a fair allotment of “his” money to spend however he wants, and “your” money to spend what you want. You can do whatever works for you, split 50/50 of community account – or agree that each of you can hold back a certain percentage of your earnings from your joint bank account… whatever works given your finances. Set up separate bank accounts where you can each keep your “own” money. </p>

<p>Then butt out – the agreement will be h. can do whatever he wants with “his” money - if he wants to use it to bail out his mooching family, so be it. You can do whatever you want with yours – save for a new car, redecorate your living room, hoard it for a rainy day – whatever. Tell your h. one last time that you do not approve of his rescuing his brother … and then never mention it again or ask to know anything about it. </p>

<p>I suggest this because the good-for-nothing brother is not YOUR problem – its your husband’s. YOUR problem is that your husband is giving away or lending a piece of your joint savings in a way that you don’t approve of. One way to resolve that problem is to continue to argue with your husband over it … but why? Why have your marriage wrecked over this? If you “win”, and if something bad happens to the sib that is somehow connected to his not having money… then your h. will blame you. (“if only…”) If you “lose”, you end up resenting your husband and his family. </p>

<p>I just think its easier all told for you to each have your own funds you can draw on without the other one getting angry. Down the line, if you find yourself feeling resentful – do something nice for yourself with your personal funds, & spend a little on yourself – that way you’ll at least feel a little better.</p>

<p>(If your husband really wants to disengage and asks your advice – then all the other suggestions in this thread are great ideas – I’m just responding because I sense your h. is ambivalent and you are the one feels more strongly that you need to put an end to this pattern)</p>

42

<p>Great idea from Calmom ! I am glad we don’t have to have that arrangement in my family. We both have mooching/nee’r do well relatives but mostly we have the same attitude towards them. Still I am filing the solution away just in case. I am thinking of the children… :(</p>

43

<p>Interesting mix of ideas here. I dont see the “divide our money and let DH give away what he wants” as something either of us would be comfortable with. We have always chosen and prefer to manage our money together, jointly, and to work out financial decisions jointly. We will come up with something we can both live with. Neither of us would be comfortable with the “divide and handle finances separately”. We are also both savers. I am splurging this one year and have been saving to remodel the kitchen and bath (thank heavens this savings didn’t go into the stock market and down the flusher like a lot of our $$). We have our kids and other things to think about, and I am not OK with enablng unhealthy, irresponsible behavior, so the thought of opening a pipeline from our savings (and yes, we consider it “ours”, not “yours and mine”) to their wallet is just not an option. Given what I do and my background/training, it is just not something I am at all OK with, and it is not advice I would give to clients. And the problem will never be addressed or fixed. It is unhealthy to enable this kind of behavior. They are not our responsibility. </p>

<p>We will, I am sure, at some point, be expected to help with the care or management of the 2 of their 3 kids who will probably not be independent ever. We are just at the beginning of that mess, and it is just not going to happen that we will be expected to take over where daddy left off. Dad left them a lot of $$$. If they **** it away, that is not going to be our problem. If we give them $$, sib will come up with a reason that he needs to stay home and take care of all the ailing family members and not go find a job (he already got into attendance issues in previous jobs). Aint gonna happen. </p>

<p>I did talk briefly to DH about the idea of paying, as a gift, for a financial review/plan whatever it is called for them. We don’t know if the sib has enough in his USAA account to qualify to get it for free. If we pay for it, it is expensive (almost $1000!) But, if we do it, I would want DH to be comfortable saying that any financial questions or concerns are to be directed from now on to that organization- not to us, and that if they choose not to follow the recommendations of the financial advisor, thats their choice, and not our problem. (Of course we wouldnt be this blunt). But as someone above wisely pointed out, moochers dont like to have their pipeline cut off, and will escalate if they dont get what they want. I guess we will have to be prepared for this. Sigh…</p>

<p>By the way, they live in a different city (where hopefully they read that financial matters newspaper column!!) so I don’t know if we could get gift cards to the supermarkets up there. I kinda like the idea of getting them connected to someone who will advise them on how to manage their money. Even if it is much more expensive at this point, it is hopefully an investment, and I am more ok with that. Besides, it was my idea – so if my H followed up to get the info, I should support it (I was just a little taken aback at the cost of a one time consult!!)</p>

44

<p>Lots of people suggest financial counseling for the sibs, but how about some for you guys? Perhaps a dispassionate third party telling your H that this is a really bad INVESTMENT or PURCHASE (since you won’t get the $$ back) would be helpful. He probably knows this, but seeing it through a newcomers’ eyes might be a strong message. Maybe in this economy the funds are simply not available in your household, (from the outsider’s perspective)? In any case, this discussion would provide the words for him to use. A third party may take some of the emotional content out and allow it to be a more matter-of-fact discussion.</p>

45

<p>While this thread really is primarily all about the money…to lend or not to lend, the underlying subtext is about family members who are not survivors… whatever their reason or excuse is, they have one… and those who grew up around them are reluctant to witness their drowning, if you will. We have helped siblings, both mine and my husband’s and l wish we never ever had to…for all involved. It is a very tough, challenging and difficult situation to be in. We do not lead their lives…and yet, what would their life be like without our financial help? Sometimes, these individuals really need to hit rock bottom to under stand that they own their lives… that they own their own health… that they have to bring home the bacon to eat the bacon. </p>

<p>In this specific situation, Jym, your own children and their financial needs in the NEAR future, have to trump siblings…in my opinion. I think the best way to respond NO is kind of like when we got a date invitation from someone we were not interested in. We were taught to say, “No, I cannot do that because I have other plans.” Don’t elaborate on the plans. So, in this instance, “No we are terribly sorry we cannot help you but we do not have any extra to share. All our money is committed.” </p>

<p>Frame a picture of your children and put it on your DH’s desk and or dresser to remind him each and every day that he has a very specific short/longer term priority. </p>

<p>Our president elect is actually pretty crisp about personal responsibility… certainly I know the underlying difference in ethics is part of the issue…along with inherent abilities. But there are people with a lot less that live good, constructive lives. </p>

<p>good luck to you…this is a very challenging situation…</p>

46

<p>Delicate arch-
Thanks. Dh KNOWS the money would be a gift, not a loan, and that we’d be getting constant requests for more, and that it would be a bad use of $$. It isnt an investment from our perspective. It is a handout, pure and simple. DH probably doesnt need to hear that again. He’s heard it a LOT over the past 25 years. His fa finally “got it” just before he passed away, but always said “he’s my son, what am I supposed to do?”. I then heard “he’s my brother” from my H. Ugh. Teh third sib has been clear that the moocher whouldnt waste his breath comign to her for $$. My FIL,a nd now my H have beent he financial wizards of the family. It oulw be “natural” for the moocher to ask DH his “advice”. I think it is a bad idea for DH to be in that role-- and he would then get blamed if the recommendation wasnt a huge success (and in this climate, what is??) Thats why I am leaning more towards contributing to gettign moocher BIL to turn to someone OTHER than DH for advice (an dhopefully for $$). Fat chance on tha latter one. Oh, and by the way, they claimt hat sis in laws family has no money, sop cant hit up (or dont choose to or have gotten a NO) from her mo and sib.</p>

47

<p>If USAA offers a free consult could you ask that if you could ‘gift’ yours to the BIL? Then it is free to you :)</p>

48

<p>We just found out that my SIL and BIL (husband’s sister) are in foreclosure…for their second house.</p>

<p>They borrowed money from FIL. FIL’s house is collateral for the house in foreclosure. Apparently, FIL has been loaning money to his daughter to help with business and home remodel.</p>

<p>My in-laws are in their 80’s and theoretically could end up financially devastated. So the question is, do we step in and try to help? It would be helping parents in law, but also bailing out the sib who is irresponsible, which has already happened WAY too much. We aren’t in the position to be able to afford it with two kids in college and decreased salary this year. </p>

<p>My dad always had a policy - never lend money that would make you angry if it wasn’t paid back. He also had an irresponsible sib.</p>

49

<p>I am particularly sensitive to this whole issue because I watched my uncle do this to my parents and to my grandmother. He bankrupted my grandmother (even took her burial $$) and then manipulated and shafted my parents for years and years (long story-- dont want to go there right now). So, to live through it again is painful, and I have learned from this past experience to set limits and say no!!! Hope my H can do likewise,. He knows my uncle’s history.</p>

50

<p>littlegreen- why does the home in foreclosure require TWO houses as collateral?</p>

<p>I would want direct info from the banks before helping as this already does not quite make sense- so are they giving you the full story or is the synopsis just missing a wee bit of info?</p>

<p>If you are going to end up housing or helping the in laws, then the question is help now or help later!</p>

51

<p>Sorry for all the typos in post # 45!! </p>

<p>Anyone else having trouble getting CC to work smothly today?? Gremlins seem to be in the ISP or something…</p>

<p>Anyway, I asked my H about “gifting” the financial consult to BIL in USAA, somemom. No go. They don’t allow it. Besides, they’d have to be looking at BIL’s savings/investments with them, and apparently he doesnt have enough there to warrant that sevice at no charge.</p>

<p>What I was trying to say above (with all the typos) is that the third (oldest) sib has already told BIL not to waste his breath asking her for any money. Period. Good for her. She is single and retired and has her funds budgeted. She and I are on the same page. No more handouts (she has been giving the BIL’s 3 offspring a rather nice allowance every month for a long time. I suspect that will continue. She hasnt given our s’s anything like that, ever, as I assume she figures they don’t need it, which is ok, I guess. I dont let my s’s know about this as it is her choice to spend her $ as she chooses).</p>

<p>I am hoping my H will feel able to “just say no” also, when the pity party begins in earnest. I am guessing that no matter how we broach the idea of gifting BIL a financial consult (there were some good suggested wordings above, I am going to collect them and save them) he will be offended, and will find a way to try to convince DH to give him the $$ rather than to a financial consultant (repeat after me- NO!-) </p>

<p>BTW, we agreed to stop giving the respective children holiday gifts a long time ago, as it was sometimes awkward, and then when we just went to writing checks, they didnt cash ours for eons (go figure) and then they’d forget to send to our boys. So we now just give gifts to our own boys and say it is from the cousins/aunt/uncle. The only catch is that DH’s birthday happens to be at this season, so there is some small gift exchange (usually late and sent via Fedex overnight, at a ridiculous charge). </p>

<p>As for littlegreenmom, I took her post to mean that her SIL and BIL own 2 homes, and the second is in foreclosure. I am guessing that the first is mortgaged to the hilt so they couldnt use it as collateral on the second, which is where the inlaws (parents) house came in. Am I correct??</p>

52

<p>“All of their (dysfunctional) patterns are longstanding.”</p>

<p>Prior posters have offered much good advice. I’m sure it’s well intended. Unfortunately, the OP’s antagonists aren’t looking for advice — they’re looking for a fix, preferably in the form of cash or money order. It’s hard for people who haven’t had a financial delinquent in the family to understand how ingrained the mismanagement behavior is. One of my close relatives spent her family to near destitution. The furnace died (they lived in the snow belt), and there was no money to fix it. A Godsend of $8,000 arrived unexpectedly. The lady of the house promptly booked a trip to Italy – an in-season trip. Two years later there’s still no heat in the house. I use CalMom’s approach in dealing with this family. Recommended, sadly.</p>

53

<p>Newhope-
I am a little unclear- Not sure if you agree with the “loan a little and give no more til they pay it back” or “let DH give away a portion of his ‘share’ of our savings to the moocher brother” you support from Calmom’s posts. I am willing to compromise, but pouring money down a problem that wont fix itself is not in my comfort zone. Its like buying the alcoholic a bottle of booze. I just cant get with that logic. </p>

<p>I talked to DH about the resource from USAA-- turns out (and I am about to go read it) it is a year long service-- not just a one-time consult. He thought it was an interesting ideas but (a) wasnt sure if this put him onre into or more removed from his sib’s financial issues and (2) what if the sib isnt receptive to the idea? My thought (though I didnt share it yet) was that they dont get to select the gift we give them. If this is a gift from us, that is what it is. They don’t get to return it for a refund. DH thinks we shouldnt offer to help (in this way) with their financial challenges as it just invites their asking for $$ (which hasn’t happened yet, right now-- as they are still living off the money from dad). I think its better to address it when there isnt a financial crisis in their face. Thought???</p>

54

<p>Your DH appears to be wise to his relatives and to have some backbone! May it last. The tricky thing is if, as you fear, they will come cap in hand, will he still wish to stay out of their mess or will he be swayed by another hard luck story? This is what you and your DH need to discuss now. Agree to a plan and stick with it. If, he now or later agrees to fund the consult, remind him that this is the only thing you are willing to fund; and as you say, they do not get to choose the gift; they cannot say “give us the money you would have paid to the consultant so that we can spend it on something else.” It’s either the consult or nothing. But your H has to buy into the idea.</p>

55

<p>New Hope, WOW, that’s all I can say, is just “wow”
Jym- if you use Firefox instead of IE, it has a spell checker, which has greatly reduced my bloopers, as I think faster than my fingers can type ;)</p>

<p>on Littlegreen, I am wondering how the FILs house can be encumbered on a foreclosed house- does one loan have two collateral items?</p>

<p>On bad money mgmt and how families deal with it- a dear friend’s husband has a sister who is lousy with money…there are 5 kids, one is incompetent, the parents bought her a house and then they remodeled it for her- they don’t feel the need to do equal things for the other kids as they don’t need it.</p>

<p>We have had some long discussions with various friends & families who have one mooch kid and it is intriguing to see what is fair-is it fair to help the one who needs it, even if that one needs it due to bad choices & bad decisions? What about helping the one who needs it due to good decisions- one of your kids goes to med or law school, do you pay for that? What about your kid who did not go to school? Do you give them money?</p>

<p>What if one kid needs $$ for whatever, do you give the other kids $ too?</p>

<p>I know that my sibling who helps out the disabled one wants out, big time, and one big irritant is how the disabled sibling wastes money on frivolous things whilst the other sib works very hard and has to sacrifice to pay for the contributions they make to the other.</p>

<p>Donating sib does not want to care what disabled sib does with any money, but when it affects you, you cannot help but judge their decisions.</p>

56

<p>I think you are really smart to think of this before things are desperate and I don’t know how you will end up handling it, but I am interested to hear it!</p>

<p>My disabled sib lives nearby and I am always trying to avoid being asked for anything as I don’t want to be faced with the unpleasantness of having to say no, but I would likely say no. These would be smaller things, but still I see it as a bottomless pit and I am strapped with kids in college- though I know sib thinks I am ‘rich’ I am far from it, I just take really good care of my things and spend carefully.</p>

57

<p>jym, I made a suggestion to you that I thought might be helpful – and you said it wouldn’t work for your family. I respect that.</p>

<p>But then you went on to write:

</p>

<p>My suggestion is a simple solution that would work for a lot of families. If one partner in a marriage wants to help a troubled sibling and the other doesn’t – then that is going to cause a lot of stress and tension, especially if it is the relative of the partner who is more inclined to help. </p>

<p>One thing I learned when I split up with my ex was not to put my kids in the middle of our financial disputes, or allow a situation where both parents are making conflicting demands on the kids loyalties. But I see the situation you describe as inevitably putting the spouse with the relative square in the middle of a tug-of-war between the blood relative and the spouse. I don’t think that’s healthy. I’m not criticizing your choice – that’s up to you – but to claim that its bad advice because it is “unhealthy to enable the behavior” is asserting one point of view. Since I have my own family member who is such a drag – I know that I even though I am quite capable of saying no, I wouldn’t want that decision forced on me. It’s o.k. with me if the resolution means I can go a year or more without hearing from my blood relative – but maybe that’s not o.k. in another family? In my case it’s just an unmarried single adult who is mooching – in your case it sounds like there are nieces en nephews involved. What about the health of the relationship between the siblings? </p>

<p>To my way of looking, most fights in a relationship about money are over control – and it can create a lot of resentment if one partner feels the other is forcing them into a decision they don’t want to make. That’s why I felt there was some value to creating a fund that the partner with the family member could exercise his own control over. It isn’t about right or wrong, it’s about who has the responsibility and who has the control, knowing that control and responsibility always go hand in hand. </p>

<p>You are right that it is “unhealthy” to enable the relatives’ mooching behavior – but realistically it is NOT going to change. To think that you can sign them up for financial counseling or buy them a book and have everything resolved is as naive as thinking that you could resolve a substance abuse problem with a simple referral or a self-help book. The family with the money problems has a long-standing pattern set up and they perceive their problems differently. Most likely they perceive themselves as victims of an unfair and unpredictable world, where they are always confronted with unforeseen events. You and I probably perceive the world as a place where we can protect ourselves by good planning, so we worry about things like funding our retirement plans and purchasing insurance. We function this way because we anticipate all of those events that come like surprises to the other family. </p>

<p>Just like an addiction, the only way they are going to ever change is when they recognize on their own that they need help. You can make suggestions and offer things, but they don’t want that – they want your money. They probably equate money with familial love, in that they probably rationalize that you and your h. “have plenty” and they have more need, and that your telling them no means that you are selfish and don’t love or care for them. So when you say no, no matter how nicely, they are going to get angry. The last thing they are going to do if they are ticked off is follow your advice – quite the contrary, they will probably engage in passive aggressive behavior and do everything possible to undermine or avoid following your advice. </p>

<p>Anyway, my sense from your post is that you and DH agree that things have to change, but that you do not yet agree on details. I think you should back off and give DH more control to make his own decisions, since it is his family – my sense is that you want a closer involvement. But that also is “enabling” behavior in a sense – you could be “enabling” your DH’s inability to stand up to his relatives on his own by insisting on being part of the picture. Maybe that’s o.k – after all, a marriage is an intimate relationship that is founded on sharing, and maybe your DH wants and needs your support and input on this. </p>

<p>But you came here asking for advice – I’ve lived this situation both in my own family and seeing it in my ex-husband’s family. I am eternally grateful that I seem to have raised both my kids to be independent minded young adults with a strong work ethic – its nice that they don’t seem likely to replicate these problems with each other. But part of the process of getting there was backing off and letting go in many areas of their lives.</p>

58

<p>jym - Sorry, I should have specified which CalMom post I was referring to. What I did was “loan” a significant (but not ridiculous) amount of money. DW and I agreed upon the amount, and we’ve added a couple hundred here and there over the years when the need was compelling – like their truck failing inspection due to bad brakes.</p>

59

<p>Post #57 brings up a good point about the advice books and counseling. I can’t imagine that the OPs relatives want to help themselves. This is really the pickle. I know what it is like to have a close relative who would give the “shirt off his back” to those manipulative other relatives. I personally can not stand to see the shirtless guy be made into a door mat. </p>

<p>Years ago my mothers “long lost brother” showed up in florida, where she was living in retirement as a widow. He was not even in touch when my dad died, so it had been 10-15 years since she had heard of him. He had no where to live, etc. After two weeks he drove her nuts (he was quite a loony his whole life.) And she told him to find another place.</p>

<p>He did. He of course was PO’d, and she heard from him no more. When mom died, it took a while, but we found that he had died just a month after her. He was not destitute as it turned out. Mom felt that if the whole relationship was about what he could get from her, she did not want it.</p>

<p>Now a story of my other uncle, my Dad’s brother. My dad died mid way through my graduate school. He was not contributing very much, but he did pay for my car insurance and gas I think. My uncle came to the funeral and even though no one would have ever dreamed of asking him for a loan, he, sua sponte, said to me don’t ask. Better that I should drop out. I got mad, but I never told him. Not mad that he didn’t loan or give me money; I was mad that he was so proactive. My parents had never asked him for anything. In fact, my dad had done him many favors.He was just so afraid that he might be asked. I was working my way through and I had loans and scholarships. I made it without him. I always kept in touch with him, and when I went to florida I would always look him up. He never kept in touch with me, although he called mom from time to time. In the end, I stopped keeping in touch with him. He did not care about me at all, and I certainly had never asked him for anything but love.</p>

<p>I mention these stories because at the bottom of it all is the question of whether there is love there. If you, your H or whomever are just there to be taken advantage of, what good is the relationship? If they really are just lovable boobs well maybe it is worth it. Only you know.</p>

60

<p>Thanks for clarifying, Newhope. I in fact ran the “small loan and no more til they pay it back” idea by my H but his response was that he doesn’t really want to start the loan model at all. He seems to think that the USAA thing might be a reasonable idea, but I have to sit back and let him think about it for a while. If we talk too much about it he hits saturation and needs to stop. We are at that point right now so its time to let it percolate. I tend to try to avoid a potential problem, get a plan in place and closure. DH prefers to deal with it if/when it happens. My concern is that it will surface when the bro is in some urgent situation and DH will feel compelled to open his wallet. </p>

<p>Calmom-
I did (and do) want to hear different ideas and several, including your “small loan” idea were very helpful. The fact that the “divide some funds and the checkbooks” (my paraphrasing) approach isnt for us was in no way a reflection on you. I appreciate your comments and thoughts.</p>