<p>“… the sibling is a master at mooching off of other people. I’d just like it not to be us!”</p>
<p>Our goal was to be the “lender” of LAST resort, to be approached only when life or limb was endangered.</p>
<p>anothermom2-
Your uncle wasn’t proactive, he was tacky!!! Ouch. To say that to you at your fathers funeral?!?! Blech.</p>
<p>Somemom,</p>
<p>You asked about the collateral issue about FIL’s house. I am not sure if what I am hearing is true, or if it is stretched. What I did understand is that over the last several years, FIL has borrowed against a fully paid off house to help his daughter (my SIL). He helped when the child’s first house went into foreclosure, when her and then spouse’s business needed help, and then to help the daughter and new husband with new house loan and remodel.</p>
<p>What he essentially did was throw good money after bad. I don’t believe the current foreclosure is the problem for FIL, per se. I think that if the house does go into foreclosure, then FIL’s credit score is impacted, and clearly now owes a huge amount of money which probably shouldn’t have been loaned to begin with.</p>
<p>The irony of the situation is that FIL owns three houses - and three of them outright, until he started loaning money to his daughter. He would have been better off if he let his daughter live in one of those houses for free than to loan or co-sign any loans, to begin with. Too bad FIL has never listened to my husband…who has never got any assistance whatsoever, financial, or otherwise from his dad!</p>
<p>I worry because we thought in laws financial health was backed up with the paid off houses. Now we realize that he was really put his future at risk to bail out the kid who has never been able to manage money, wisely.</p>
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<p>My thought is that it does not matter what I think. Let’s say the whole internet agrees that it’s better to address it when there isn’t a financial crisis in their face. What impact do that have on your marriage, on your life? None. Perhaps your husband does not want to bring it up becasue he’s enjoying this time of relative peace with his brother. This is his brother. To you, this sibiling is not worth the trouble, but that is not a decision you get to make for your husband. </p>
<p>Through circumstance, I’ve watched this situation play out several times up close. It comes down to what it always comes down to, you cannot control anyone else’s behavior except your own. You can plan, collect information, ask strangers but the bottom line is that it’s going to be your husband speaking to his sibling. The sooner you step out of this triangle the three of you have going, the sooner you can switch your focus from the distraction (money) to the real issue.</p>
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<p>I agree with what Calmom says in the quote above. I do not think that you are going to be able to fix your relatives. I do think that you and your H need to sit together, make a list of the problems with them that you are entangled with, ie: the children, the mooching to come. </p>
<p>Calmom says the following, and I disagree with this:
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<p>I am not sure that your husband necessarily wants the situation of helping them to change. If he did, you might not have a problem, unless the devil is in the details (not sure). I can tell you that if faced with this problem DH and I would sit together and come to a decision as to what we are willing to do, and what we are not willing to do. We would compromise, but doing so is not always easy. Once we came to an agreement, we would stick with a united front. If I were made to back off, I would be very angry. That would not work for me at all. I would expect to help make decisions that effected our kids, and my life too.</p>
<p>northeastmom, I wanted to add that I agree with what you said about compromising being needed and, most of all, it not being easy. </p>
<p>But from what I’m reading, I do not think that the OP is ready to do that yet. She’s angry (rightfully so) and gathering evidence to support it/convince her husband of the rightousness of her pov. Her husband, it seems, is wanting to not deal with this right now (I can’t help but wonder if it would not be better to wait until after the holidays.) </p>
<p>I’ve known so many families in this situation. One spouse starts with wanting to give no money, the other spouse starts not knowing what to do about the sibling but not wanting to make any firm committments. This is a long, tough process and “time-outs” are a healthy part of it, in my opinion.</p>
<p>I have found the myriad of opinions here very interesting and useful. I have <em>no</em> expectation that we are going to fix a problem that they dont even think they have. As I say to my patients, the first step to fixing a problem is recognizing that there is one. Sib doesnt recognize it. I wish the magic wand I keep for decoration in my office really worked, and that I could wave it over them and their issues and make their fiscal irresponsibility and medical high drama stuff go away. I <em>wish</em> a book and a meeting with a counselor could “fix” it. Of course it cant. No one has blinders on about that issue. I just dont want to be expected to fund their delusions.</p>
<p>Turns out that the USAA thing is a full year (12 month) service that gives them an ongoing relationship with a financial counselor/advisor. My thought was that we could possibly shift that burden (advising, etc) to this counselor while also doing a nice thing, and perhaps get ourselves a little more removed from their financial trainwreck. A win-win opportunity. It is still an option we will explore.</p>
<p>Interestingly, DH just told me that he had a call from his sib tonight. The sib said he had spoken with his “accountant/financial advisor” today to discuss options for less expensive healthcare, (using his business venture he set up not too long ago as a place to set up a small corporate insurance plan) as they are paying dearly for their COBRA. My h and I know that the sib could perhaps cut some premium costs for a year (if anyone will sell them a policy which, with their history, is probably doubtful) but the premiums will skyrocket or they will get dropped once they generate the medical bills that they will with their multiple medical issues. I wouldnt be surprised if they are uninsurable. Anyway, DH’s comment to me was that his bro is focused on cutting the cost of the healthcare premium rather than being focused on the income necessary to generate in order to cover the cost of his healthcare. My H is no fool, and he is as concerned as I am about the inevitable day they will come to us for a bail-out. My h said that he knows I am often willing to put more energy than he is into avoiding a problem. </p>
<p>I used this thread as a place to vent and to brainstorm, with the hopes that I’d hear some good suggestions and see if any fit our situation, and I have. I try not to vent to DH about his sib. That does no one any good. DH doesnt want to have to defend his bro, and he is close to his bro, which is fine. Its more than fine-- its really nice. Sadly,though, his bro takes advantage of his (DH’s) kindness and generosity, and I have trouble with that, but I try not to speak negatively about his bro to my DH. Again, that what the venting <em>here</em> is good for :D.</p>
<p>If DH thinks the USAA resource is in any way useful, and thinks his bro might actually take advantage of the gift and not find it insulting (thats a tough call) he (DH) might run the idea by the other sib to get her opinion. At this point I just put it out there – I trust DH’s financial skills and perspective on these matters.</p>
<p>The one thing the USAA program does offer that we doubt BIL’s current acountant/advisor offers is a debt relief program. Again, hard to say if BIL will see that he needs that. Doubtful, but one can hope. DH and I are big proponents of education. And to us, this program at USAA is an opportunity to learn. So, we shall think about it as a possible gift. What we WONT do is write a check instead to hand to them.</p>
<p>*** edit*** By the way, after several phonecalls today during which some aspects of this holiday idea were addressed, DH brought home 2 dozen roses. He is a great guy.</p>
<p>Awww, jym. </p>
<p>Guess he is a keeper then.</p>
<p>Good luck with the issue(s). DD had to read Wisdom of the Crowds (or something like that) and that is what is available here. Even the suggestions that are not agreeable to us somehow clarify our own positions.</p>
<p>Uh oh, esobay, this thread now has assigned reading? :o</p>
<p>jym, since one of the concerns is that the sib will be insulted at being gifted the USAA resource, I wonder if you could pass it off as a “two-for-one” deal, or let the sib know that you/your H found the resource soooo incredibly useful and wonderful, you just HAD to share it with the sib by providing them with the same service as a present, and were thrilled there was a way to do so!</p>
<p>Aside from that, you might want to give one or more of the sib’s kids a copy of the book “The Millionaire Next Door.” I’m thinking the sib/sib’s wife may pick up the book to see what the “get rich quick” scheme is… and of course, there isn’t one. Maybe the book (which I think should be required high school reading) will plant a little seed in their fiscally irresponsible brains if they do read it.</p>
<p>But don’t give it to them – give it to one of the kids instead!</p>
<p>I concur with Esobay’s viewpoint…I do know that when I had my first baby, I read all the different parenting books, Spock, Penelope Leach, Brazelton, Ferber and others so that I could have multiple vantage points to consider as I was confronted with new issues. </p>
<p>CC often serves as a similiar resource for me where there are experienced folks contributing their experiences and what they have learned on a myriad of topics. The Cafe is for any and all topics (except politics) and the Forum is for college related items. It is always fun to see what people here write about and the ability to tap in to such a rich and varied audience is priceless!!!</p>
<p>My Mother and Father in-law use the USAA service and have for many years - and are very happy customers. While I don’t use it since I have an existing relationship with a local firm, I would go to them without hesitation should the need arise.</p>
<p>The USAA service does sound like a great present - assuming that they are receptive. Since they already have someone they are using, at least they are willing to get professional advice. The concern I would have is that, assuming he is competent, they are probably already getting good advice from their existing guy - and are not able to extricate themselves from their problem - so why would the USAA service be any different?</p>
<p>I agree with the approach - give them a fishing pole rather than a salmon - but change has to start within and I don’t see the signs that they want to change.</p>
<p>Lots of interesting thoughts. Update on the USAA thing. Given that BIL mentioned an “accountant/financial advisor” last night, we are thinking he might not go for the suggestion of another resource like the USAA one. There was also a less expensive, less comprehensive 2 month option on USAA for less money (though I forget what the criteria are for using that one-- they had income and savings /investment guidelines to qualify for these services). I was talking to a friend this morning who knows the hx with my BIL (she has her own sibling issues-- dont we all…) anyway, she suggested that perhaps we could look at the 2 month deal (if he qualifies and if the services look appropriate) and then, if he uses it or finds it helpful, we could offer to spring for the more comprehensive service. That way we are out less $$ if he doesnt use it or it isn’t helpful to him. I just dont know if they offer the same array of services. I havent had time to look into it yet.</p>
<p>It may well be that we decide to hold off for a while, and when they do come to us for $$, consider doing something for the kids when <em>they</em> need it. As owlice and others have said, it might be better to try to help the kids learn some fiscal responsibility, since they don’t have good role models at present. However, this is a delicate issue. Getting them books on savings is a good idea (and the booklist in the link form the Washington Post was also helpful-- thanks) but I fear, even if it is given to the kids, it will be seen as insulting. Not sure how to put a positive spin on it without it looking like an unwritten comment on the parents.</p>
<p>The middle child seems to “get it”, and I worry what burdens will fall on his shoulders when they are all adults (youngest is 17). What I predict will happen is that BIL will continue to try to build his consulting business so he can work from home, and in the meantime will continue to live off the inheritance. Even when he made a very nice 6 figure salary he still couldn’t pay his bills, so while I would love for his consulting business to be successful, I anticipate that he’ll continue to have $$ and cashflow problems. We will get the call when a crisis arises-- he doesnt have liquid cash to pay a tuition or a mortgage or an insurance premium, and he will need a quick fix. This is the first year that fa isnt there to give him his annual tax free $$$$ gift. BIL was usually asking fa for it at the very beginning of each year. Don’t know if he’ll come to us for that or whether he’ll continue to live off the inheritance first, and wait til he is in one of his $$ pinches. That’s my guess.</p>
<p>I know I sound jaded, and I thank everyone who has responded front and back channel. All ideas are welcome, even if they dont work for us. As someone posted earlier, we dont want to throw good money after bad. And my rationalization for any $$ we do end up giving in whatever form it will take, is that maybe we would have flushed it down the stock market and lost it that way, so better someone gets some use out of it…</p>
<p>A few thoughts:
- Don’t borrow trouble. They have not asked you for money. IF and WHEN they do, you and your husband will have to talk through the issue before responding to any request. At this point, if they have not asked you for money, it is not an issue. It may never be an issue, so you’re stressing out about something that you may never need to deal with.
- Keep in mind the example you will be providing for your own children. After you and your husband have died, do you want or expect your kids to look out for and/or help each other out in emergency situations? If this brother-in-law was your beloved son, how would you want your other children to handle a request for assistance from him? Practice what you preach, whatever it is you preach.
- Make sure you’re honest with yourself about assistance that people have provided to you in the past. My sister-in-law, who lost her parents at a young age, has always been very good about helping out her younger siblings. When the “hard-luck” middle sister was going through a second divorce, the youngest sister turned her back on her, which stunned my SIL who had helped that youngest sister through college and helped pay for her wedding. SIL was extremely disappointed that the youngest sister, living a yuppie lifestyle, did not see the need to help another sibling, despite having received lots of assistance herself from a sibling.</p>
<p>scualum,
Like your inlaws, we are quite happy with USAA. We had a few snares in the insurance side of their product line, but for the mostpart we’ve been quite pleased. </p>
<p>whatever4,
Very good points, and good things to think about. The BIL hasn’t asked for money yet, <em>this time</em>, but he has asked many times before. And DH and I have done many things for them, and we have paid for many things for them plenty of times. Sadly, it tends to be expected, not appreciated. We are by nature very generous people with our time and our money, and have at times been taken advantage of in that regard. </p>
<p>The things that BIL has been saying in recent phonecalls to DH are the typical precursors to the request for the “loan”… hence the plan to be a bit proactive, since in the past when we said “no” he could then turn to now late-dad for the handout. Times have changed, and my H is very much like his dad – a kind hearted generous soul who doesnt easily say no. </p>
<p>Fortunately, both of our boys are also generous and giving… also to the point that their kindness sometimes gets abused (older s especially has been taken advantage of). I have felt that there is a fine line between caregiving (a good thing) and caretaking (a codependent thing). The difference is that caregiving becomes caretaking when one does it at their own expense. I am in the helping profession, and feel great when something I do helps someone else. But one of the first things we learned in grad school is to separate ones personal issues from the patients issues. We are taught not to take their problems home with us (metaphorically). The platitude was that we can’t take care of others if we don’t take care of ourselves first. Your suggestion for us to practice what we preach is a good one. </p>
<p>We tend not to ask for much from others, but are very appreciative of the support of friends and family if/when we need it. When DH broke his leg/ankle recently, 2 friends stayed with me for 6 hrs in the waiting room during his surgery. We help each other and are there for each other when we need it. It is when it is lopsided-- one side gives and the other side takes, that eventually one begins to feel like a doormat. Yes, BIL called DH when DH broke his leg-- BIL just talked about his own history of broken bones and how much worse his experience was. Sigh…</p>
<p>“It is when it is lopsided-- one side gives and the other side takes, that eventually one begins to feel like a doormat. Yes, BIL called DH when DH broke his leg-- BIL just talked about his own history of broken bones and how much worse his experience was”
Well jym, that last sentence says all that needs to be said about this relationship, doesn’t it? It’s time to totally turn off the spigot, because self centered “users” will always be back for more as long a there is that “drip- drip- drip” to give them hope. The current economic conditions, and the fact that all of us are getting older and need to put our own immediate families first , gives you the “excuse” to stop future requests for the gravy train preemptively. Both I and my Hubby have a leach-like brothers, and I was the one who finally had to make my sweet hubby realize he was being used. I suggest you do the same, otherwise this will be a never ending story for you family.</p>
<p>I would tell them to get a job</p>
<p>I would tell them to get a job, or get a better education. Sorry but its true. And tell them that you are not made out of money.</p>
<p>^^^ So when can I schedule that teleconference between you and my DH, menloparkmom? :D</p>
<p>Also consider where it all ends. My brother was constantly “borrowing” from my mother and it never changed his habits of not working long hard hours like everybody else. What’s to stop your brother in law from coming back for more? The people who’ve asked us for loans always come back because of a “new” problem, issue, whatever.</p>