In U.S. News, National but they are considered by most an LAC. But that’s why the classifications are -not relevant. People who shop LACs note Clark is my point.
Bucknell has business and engineering. Susquehanna has a b school. Richmond a b school. Lafayette, Union engineering etc.
They’re all considered LACs but are they ? There’s an entire thread based on all of it. They are more Clark, much less Bates.
But none of it matters - just what is right for him. That’s all that matters.
Interesting the mix of schools Clark considers peer - some LACs, some not.
Perhaps other names to look at - Ithaca is just under 5k people. Very LGBTQ friendly. If not too big, might be worth a look.
Clark is an R2 research university. Whether a school is national or regional doesn’t have any bearing on if they are a liberal arts college or university.
This seems like a thoughtful, organic way to approach college selection. I like it.
Colleges and their characteristics span a wide spectrum but I always lumped Clark w LACs despite the word “university“ in their name. There are many LACs like that. But maybe Clark’s grad programs are substantial enough to have them be lumped with universities.
in any case, I think I am now on your kid’s Dad’s side although not for the same reason. I intuit there’s more to be gained from a small college setting and low faculty-student ratio and professors focused on teaching more than research — than going to a place that offers a more broad selection of majors. But Clark and similar schools may strike the right balance for you guys. Two other schools come to mind that are a bit like that, mid-sized, career-oriented and offering a lot of majors: Brandeis and U of the Pacific, not that I’m particularly recommending these to you.
Sorry to delete but on reflection, I think I am going to keep to my original plan of asking questions in a general way, rather than violating my kid’s privacy again.
I just really want to know the role that prestige and choice of major might play in college selection for kids who want careers in the business world.
Sounds to me like you’re in better shape than you may think. It’s tough to know what the best school is until they know what they want to do and they won’t know that until they are in school and figure out what they like.
So again, spend your time figuring out what schools they like, apply, see where they get in, pick the one they feel most comfortable and gives them the best chance to successfully (and happily) figure that out and go from there.
If they somehow discover that investment banking or MBB (the only ones with target school constraints) is what they want and they aren’t at a target school, they can go get an MBA at a target and enter that way.
But you’re too far away to mess with all that right now. As said ad nauseum, kids have no idea what they’re gonna wannna do. I went into school thinking pre-med. Dropped that after an awesome Medical Ethics class that got me down the philosophy path.
No worries. I’m just waking up. LOL.
Yeah, I think we’re all trying to thread the needle here.
I think I’m just going to amplify some of my remarks from upstream, especially with regard to NESCAC because those are the schools DH mentioned to you and they happen to be the schools I’m most familiar with. The reason I think ECs are important to them and the way it all relates to prestige is that - as a group - the NESCACs are among the last “name” colleges that still approach admissions in a so-called, “holistic” way. The Ivies get so many apps from so many well-qualified candidates that all they have to do is throw a dart randomly at a white board and come up with an extremely talented class; state flagships are likewise limited by the sheer numbers of apps - as well as by stiff laws against the appearance of discrimination by government entities.
NESCAC schools are attempting to extend a small community that in some cases date back to their very founding; some have claims upon the rural, outdoor nature of their surroundings; some have roots in the abolitionist and women’s suffrage movements; some were founded by religious movements. They all grew in wealth and self-confidence, in tandem with the remarkable journey of the United States as it became a world power - but always at a slower rate of physical expansion.
Their small sizes have become their superpower. And as others have pointed out, the constant interaction between gifted students and dedicated adults are what make it all work.
So, holistic admissions is very important to them despite abuses in execution in the past (Jewish quotas, “preferential treatment”, legacy admissions, etc.) and ECs are a good portion of the package kids bring to the table.
I have 2 kids and both of them are launched. One is a banker and another a lawyer. The banker told the lawyer that if she is getting sued just send a smoke signal to her.
When they were in high school, they had few career aspirations. We were lucky that we had friends in similar careers that my kids were able to shadow. I think that helped them decide if they were suited for those careers. D1 wanted to be an architect, but after shadowing someone she said it wasn’t quite right for her.
I am a big supporter of liberal arts education (I have posted numerous times about my view), especially in th era of AI. Liberal arts education teaches people critical thinking and be analytical. I have worked with IBankers who majored in Philosophy. Instead of majoring in business or accounting, I would opt for math and economics. I would imaging accounting work could be replaced by AI at some point. I spent 30+ years in technology and data, but have never taken a CS course.
As far as going to a top tier school for some of those careers. I think careers aside, top tier schools tend to have more resources and cohort of students are also be better prepared. I am currently auditing some classes at our local college. The level of work can’t be compared to my own LAC school and my kids’ school. My old boss graduated from our local college. He was one of the smartest technologist I have ever met, but he was an unicorn.
As some people have said, very few of us have stuck with the career we had at 22. My career has taken a lot of twists and turns. You want to make sure the education your kid gets would prepare them to pivot when/if necessary. Learning what is asset/liability, accrue interest, etc won’t really teach you critical thinking. What we need more now are people who can think outside of the box.
The problem is - that’s too generic a phrase. That’s why - it depends.
I was a failed journalist with a journalism and history double major. Well, when it was time to give up on my dream - I interviewed for four jobs. All business related jobs - because in reality, that’s what most jobs are.
Kids from every college end up in “the business world.” And often with similar ease.
But is a Poli Sci or English major going to become an accountant out of undergrad ? No. Can they get an entry business job or hired into a rotational program of various disciplines. Yes.
I just saw a post on linkedin yesterday where a kid from Columbus State (Georgia) got an entry level marketing job at a major automotive OEM out of state.
Most would say - Columbus State??
That’s why it’s most important that you find the proper fit - and it seems like you have a criteria already - so explore like schools - in the geographies that work - and maybe sample some that have the defined majors but others that don’t.
As he steps foot on campuses, as he walks around, talks to kids, samples the surrounds - some will eventually stand out amongst the others - and those are the places he should apply…with at least one (preferably two) that will 100% assuredly meet the budget (meaning don’t rely on the NPC for that but apply to one that the cost, at full pay or with auto merit) will meet (depending on the budget, you may have to flex some criteria here).
And btw - many schools - even those with top b schools (like a Penn State - I know it’s not in play but as an example) don’t look at ECs at all. But no matter where you go, if he’s got one or two with impact and depth, you’d be fine.
A former boss of mine used to say “You can get anywhere from anywhere” which was sort of hilarious, since our company at the time recruited actively at about two dozen campuses in the US, the top three universities in places where we had operations around the world, and getting through the door from anywhere else as a new grad was very, very difficult (but not impossible). He was referring to experienced and mid-career hiring- which made it more or less true. Once someone has developed domain expertise (Paper processing? Lean manufacturing? B2B marketing? Investor relations?) the college stuff does become less important. But the hurdles still remain- how do you get quality experience upfront?
I go back to my earlier comment- it’s just about optionality. Graduating from Swarthmore, few people are going to wonder if you can write a three page executive summary of a 750 page analysis of “here’s why our business is soft in EMEA this year”. The Swarthmore graduate is presumed to know how to look stuff up, analyze a bar or pie chart, has a basic (even if elementary) understanding that Germany is not South Africa even though they are both part of the EMEA region. You go to Williams and major in Art History and you’re still a credible candidate for entry level jobs in marketing or strategy.
Does this matter? For some, not for others. But as I observe the increased inter-disciplinary nature of the world— it strikes me that some pre-professional training is way too focused on content and not focused enough on analysis. History, poli sci, regional studies, math- these were the traditional liberal arts departments which focused on analysis. Will the pendulum swing back? I don’t have a crystal ball. But some business employers have always had a preference- or a finger on the scale- for grads who can read, write, speak, analyze. And if that means they need some training on the technical skills- hey, virtually everything in corporate learning right now is being delivered in 20 minute modules complete with jazzy graphics and music where employees watch, take a test, and move up to the next level once they’ve mastered the material.
I totally agree with this. It reminds me of when my son first interviewed for jobs as a Princeton physics major. One interviewer told him, in essence, that his pedigree demonstrated that he had the intellectual horsepower required for the job and that since his verbal communication skills were strong, he was a high value prospect.
Fast forward to today. He’s part of a high powered 4 person team at a top hedge fund, where his teammates graduated from MIT, Caltech, and Columbia.
I’m sure there are a lot of people in the firm from outside T10 schools, but the more common path is from the so called “elite” schools.
Given the huge range of jobs and careers “in the business world”, there is no one answer applicable to all. Elite management consulting → prestige college, specific major is less important. CPA → college with sufficient accounting and business courses for CPA educational requirements. Etc.
LACs with Business majors:
U of Richmond
Washington & Lee
Bucknell
Skidmore
(check course catalogs for additional possibilities – some others do seem to offer concentrations tied to Business/Finance…)
Other LACs without Business, but with some Wall Street ties:
Williams
Amherst
Middlebury
Swat
Hamilton
Colgate
Smallish/medium-sized universities with Business majors (under about 20,000 students):
MIT (Management)
Notre Dame
Georgetown (on the bigger side – 20k total students)
Washington U
Carnegie-Mellon
Boston College
Case Western
U of Rochester
Lehigh
SMU
Tulane
Villanova
(there are more of course…)
Smallish/medium-sized universities without Business majors, but WS connections:
Yale
Princeton
Stanford
Dartmouth
Brown
Duke
UChicago
(Harvard, UPenn, NYU, Columbia, Northwestern, and Cornell are all large universities – over 20,000 students.)
Correlation vs causation. We all have anecdotes and intuitions and beliefs about the role of prestigious colleges.
This was actually studied by economists quantitatively, and sure, no study is perfect and yes, it varies and there are exceptions but studies identify the overall pattern in a complex dataset. I believe it more than anecdotes.
No, not really. He’s choosing where to apply from between schools that are a fit.
He doesn’t know, at this point whether practical sounding majors like business or cybersecurity are more of a fit than more liberal arts majors like math or economics.
So, he’s not saying “one category is a better fit than the other, but I’m worried about prestige or optionality or whatever”. He’s saying “what are other factors that should play a role”.
