How much do B grades impact applications to top tier schools like Stanford, Yale, Princeton, and Caltech?

Applying to College
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My son has a GPA of 3.9 and 3 Bs although he has taken many rigorous APs. His Bs are in the first term of his AP courses and he has grown to A in the second semester of the course. He is founder of clubs in his school and is also working on a research project that he hopes to publish this year. He is scheduled to take SAT next month and hopes to cross 1530. He is interested in EE or a combination of Engineering/electronics. Realistically, should he apply to the top-tier schools at all ?

Thank you

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What subjects are the B’s in?

For Electrical Engineering, I would be relatively more concerned about B’s in math or physics. In contrast, B’s in English Literature or art would not concern me specifically for an EE major, even when applying to highly ranked and very selective schools.

Of course Stanford, Yale, Princeton, and Caltech are reaches for pretty much everyone.

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Well, you’ll never know why someone gets in…or doesn’t.

4.0 and top test scores get turned down while 3.8 and less than top get in.

You apply - and see. The application and consideration are a lot more than grades. There’s rigor, test scores, ECs, essays, recommendations - and does the school have a need for a student like yours. A student from my son’s glass of 550 or so that wasn’t in the top 25 went to Princeton. I don’t know anyone else who applied or what the decision was but…

In the most recent CDS, Stanford doesn’t break out by grades but shows an average 3.94. Princeton a 3.96.

When you’re looking at 5% or less schools, even if you were told, it won’t impact at all - they’re still 5% schools.

So you take your shot - and plan for alternatives.

You don’t have his test yet. But if he’s 1500+, and a 760+ in math, why not?

The odds are even with a 1600 and 4.0, he gets turned down. But someone is getting in.

But please do a chance me or match me- I’m basing this on stats - we don’t know anything about your son - the level of rigor in English, math, science, social science and foreign language.

And of course, moreso than anything, your budget is most critical - unless you’re able to spend $100K a year on college.

My believe is that getting turned down to a college is a good thing. If nothing else, you’ll know you gave it an attempt vs. people who get in everywhere and then wonder, should I have gone higher. Take your shot - if you get rejected, so what? There will be plenty of great schools for your student.
Good luck.

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Bs in AP Calc 1st term, AP Physics C first term, in AP Chemistry first term and Linear Algebra final term. But went onto get A in second term and also advanced to Multivar and Linear Algebra in Junior year.

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Thank you @tsbna44 I was wondering whether to apply at all, but your comment that if you don’t attempt, you are left wondering is really meaningful.

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But first - make sure you are at the level.

You need to get an SAT score.

And share with us the students classes in the core areas I mentioned above.

For some, reach schools are levels beneath those.

btw - successful engineers come from all schools, not just the top schools.

But in life, no pain, no gain. You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take. Cliches like that are true.

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Sharing in more detail. Core Classes:

9th: AP Biology, AP World History,Honor Algebra, English,Spanish

Summer of 9th: Geometry, Pre-Calculus at community college

10th: AP Physics C:Mechanics and E&M, AP Calc AB, AP Seminar, Spanish

Self-studied and took AP Calc BC exams and got a 4.

11th: AP Chemistry, AP US History, Multivar Calculus, Linear Algebra, AP Research, AP Eng Lang, Spanish

Now, in senior year: AP Eng Lit, AP Euro History, AP Macro/Gov, AP Statistics, Spanish 4 and Electronics at community college.

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Without hooks, like being an athlete, high donor, or a legacy, this is rare at the most rejective schools that use wholistic admissions.

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Wow - you have way way way overdone it. I hope your student isn’t over stressed. Look at the 9th grade summer - two maths. Why?

He is far too aggressive and perhaps that caused the Bs.

I think you take your shot - and ultimately budget drives the decision. Can you afford these?

This class load was very unnecessary and may have hurt his chances (the lower grades). I hope your son has had a good experience. This is far far far too much for a high schooler. Often times it leads to burnout in college.

But again, if you can afford the schools, take your shot.

PS - you should not have skipped over Calc BC.

Why is he stopping math? Stats is a huge downward shift. So that alone is likely not a good look. This is where elevating - and he didn’t ace the BC test - was a mistake in my opinion. He obviously needed BC.

I wish your son luck - and I hope you let him be a high schooler. This is just crazy intense - but whether it’s a Cal Tech or an RPI or Case Western type, or a Princeton or a Purdue, there will be a great school for him.

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Put it down to ignorance. AP Stats was the only math in school that he can take. He took multivar one term and linear algebra was the next term at school as part of dual enrolment in community college. He was planning to retake AP Calc BC exams, but fell sick during APs in Jr year and we cancelled it.

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He got a 4. No need to take it again.

What other AP scores does he have? You need to report them to Stanford.

I’d figure out what he wants in a school - beyond a name. Cal Tech is very different than P or S.

Who else is on his list?

And can you afford all these - $100K a year?

How are his ECs - you mentioned founding clubs - but does he have tenure, made a quantifiable impact - like recruited x members, planned y activities or grew the club etc. I don’t think finding a club matters - but tenure and impact do matter - whether existing or not.

Let’s see how his test is - and then you make a complete list.

You only need to get into one - and choice is good - so two safeties are great - and then you apply where you want (assuming affordability).

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AP score of 5 on AP Seminar, AP Lang, APUSH and 4s on AP Physics C,AP Chem, AP Bio and Calc BC and Research.

He has been looking into Yale, and Princeton and likes the majors related to Material Science or Electronics/Radio/Engineering. He wants to explore Yale combining with a minor in Business. Stanford, likes STS. Other than this, he plans to apply to most UCs(being from California) and hopes to get UCLA,UCB and possible safeties : UCSB or CSUN, Calpoly etc.

Affordability: Possibly a combination of loan and partial payment.
EC: He is working on expanding his research as he got some high praise from professors and he is hoping to publish soon. He has founded and grown 2 clubs, I believe, one literary and one related to Physcis. This year club, his physics teacher loves the idea and is going to be the sponsor for that. I believe. He has coached elementary students for Olympiad since 9th grade, active in Mock Trial and Moot court, and going to be Captain for this year Mock trial team, Copy Editor for yearbook.

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Cal Poly isn’t a safety with 3 Bs. Depending on his choice of major, it will fall anywhere from match to reach.

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I don’t think the Ivy and Stanford are in play with those scores - it doesn’t mean don’t try.

But you know, the high fallutin dream schools aren’t the most critical on your list.

The safety/likely that you can afford are - so focus on those.

Back to Yale, I don’t believe they offer a minor in business. Northwestern and Vandy do - I don’t think Yale, but you might check me.

You can’t just borrow to get a degree - well you could, but you might bankrupt yourself and your student. These limits are there for a reason and graduate school loans are similarly restrictive.

My son is an engineer - went to a low ranked SEC school and found out at trivia night he made more than a Columbia grad at a neighboring company. So you want to be realistic.

The UC plan works - especially if you are ok with Riverside and CSUN. Don’t forget, you have WUE - Oregon State, UN Reno, etc. for low cost schools - and there’s schools like ASU, U of A, Colorado School of Mines - budget depending - all great schools - and schools in the South where you’d be $20-25K per year all in (and Californians go to one in particular in droves).

Chase the schools you want but keep your finances in good shape. Someone has to pay back these loans - if you start taking out large private loans, 1) You will be responsible and 2) You can make the payments so high that the student will have undue stress for many many many years. With his stats, assuming a 1500 SAT (even a bit lower), will qualify him for extreme merit - if that helps. I don’t know how much you’d have to borrow - but if it’s more than $27K over four years (the federal limit), in my opinion, it’s too much!!!

Good luck

Undergraduate Annual Loan Limits Dependent Student Independent Student
First Year $5,500 (Up to $3,500 Sub) $9,500 (Up to $3,500 Sub)
Second Year $6,500 (Up to $4,500 Sub) $10,500 (Up to $4,500 Sub)
Third, Fourth, and Fifth Year $7,500 (Up to $5,500 Sub) $12,500 (Up to $5,500 Sub)
Undergraduate Aggregate Loan Limits $31,000 (Up to $23,000 Sub) $57,500 (Up to $23,000 Sub)
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Which of the majors might be a reach at Cal poly ?

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Mechanical and Aerospace both hover at about 12%. Remember, those are all applications to the same major, so the pool is very strong.

The 25th percentile capped and weighted GPA for the CENG as a whole is 4.14. The 75th is 4.25, and last I knew that’s where the algorithm capped. ME, AE, EE, Civil and Comp E will all likely have higher 25th percentiles.

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Pick a major over the school. The major is far more important and will determine his future moreso than the school.

Here’s some examples for EE

U Mich - $85K median, $86.1K average

U Alabama - $82.7K average - and has a very high knowledge rate meaning they have the data on most everyone unlike most schools.

But worry less about the name and more about finding the right environment for your student.

UC doesn’t seem to put out by school or major #s but shows a $90K median for engineering two years out. I’m sure there is a difference by school - and mainly based on where jobs are placed. They don’t show starting salaries.

U of Arizona shows an $81.2K starting salary - that’s likely similar to the UC (two years out #). They don’t break out by major. Usually EE might be a bit higher.

UMN is $79K average.

The point being - even at a UC, your outcome is unlikely to be much different regardless of where you go. Yes, Ivy will place higher - but that’s because kids will consult and do other things. Yes, the UCs and Cal Poly are big names but unlikely to give you the lift that you expect vs. other schools your son might attend.

Major over school - the data supports it.

And you mentioned loans - keep your costs in check - his salary is likely to be similar regardless of where he attends.

I see you are name conscious - it’s great - if you can afford that. But not if you can’t.

Kids turn down higher ranked schools for lower rank every day - as mine did. Avoid debt if it’s not needed. No matter what anyone says, it’s not good - especially if you can move forward without it and you likely can.

And for any schools - you might fill out their net price calculator to see what you’d pay. I put Yale below since you mentioned it.

Good luck.

Net Price Calculator

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Do they have their formula for calculating Weighted GPA? My son has a weighted GPA of 5.09

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delete

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I think based on his Seniors, we were looking at Princeton and Yale. But we are also definitely applying to UCs and safety is going to be CSUN or UCSB. But will look at Net price calculators. I think son is heartbroken and down thinking that all the hard work he has put in will not earn him a seat in T10s. So I am trying my best to see what we can do.