How much does/did your HS band/orchestra student practice at home?

This HS student is not a musician. Music is a purely elective fun thing to do. As long as she enjoys it and gets good grades in it no at home time is needed. And if the grades suffer (music will not likely be counted in any gpa calculated by colleges) then she has lost interest and should quit for next year’s schedule. That is why this parent needs to let go of her control over her D’s life. The surest way to take away enjoyment is to force a student to practice set times and hours, plus take lessons. Unless she intends to pursue a music performance major in college (like my niece did) there is no reason for spending any, much less a lot of, money (and time) on private lessons.

Good to hear my son wasn’t the only for whom the in class practice time was sufficient. Once students reach a certain level of competence they do not need to progress further. My experience has been that here may be a freshman band and orchestra class but then there is only one of each for the other three grades. Seniors and sophomores are playing the same music together. Your D already spends five days a week with this. Let her expand her after school time with other activities.

I think it depends…

In our HS, band is as big an activity as any sport. Our HS has a wind ensemble and an honors wind ensemble. Freshmen and sophomores are usually in the regular wind ensemble. Everyone can audition for honors wind ensemble…but mostly juniors and seniors are in that. Mostly.

I will say…at our HS, you didn’t get into the honors ensemble unless you earned the spot. So…it did take some extra work. But it was extra work on the wind ensemble music…not concertos or other more complex pieces. TBH, a good player who went to band five days a week (yes, our HS band class was one period a day…every day) could master those wind ensemble pieces.

About 50% of our HS musicians took private lessons…but the teachers ranged from folks like my son (who had a very active private studio as a HS student) to the first chair in our city orchestra.

My kid studied with that first chair instrumentalist…and I can tell you…there was no way DS would have been able to keep up without practicing. But then again…DS is a professional musician now. He practiced. Still does.

DD also studied with a symphony member…but DD was that great sight reader who really didn’t give two hoots about her quality…because she was already first chair. She practiced when she had a particularly challenging part, or a solo. And she most definitely practiced for her precollege orchestra and wind ensemble. Because she had to!

To the OP…let this go. Your kid will set their practice time based on what the KID really wants to achieve. And it will all be fine!

And for the record…before our kids got drivers licenses…I did a LOT of driving around to various lessons and ensemble rehearsals. I always took a good book with me. When the weather was nice, I went for a walk.

Nothing will make your kid hate their instrument more than forced practice. And even if you have money in the bank, wasting money on lessons they don’t practice for is not worthwhile. I just don’t see how monthly lessons add anything, either. I’d just draw a line that no practice/no parent money or energy for lessons, and leave the rest entirely up to her. Don’t use this as a proxy for trying to reduce screen time or use her time productively or whatever. This is just not worth the fight with a teenager at all, especially one that is doing well academically.

@wis I think these are wise words… However…when you say

“Let her expand her after school time with other activities”

The problem is that there are not a lot of activities in our small-town/rural community for teens to do other than athletic teams (which she’s not interested in) theater (not interested in) and band/orchestra. Also, the band (IMO) has a great leader, and is one of the best things in this town. Our community (set in a beautiful, friendly area) is economically disadvantaged, with a large elderly population, a small percentage of people with college degrees, lots of costs for eroding infrastructure, a high opioid addiction rate, and there’s not a lot of funding or skilled people to lead youth activities.

DD loves structured group activities, not so much independent hobbies (such as drawing/crafts) though she does like to read. She loves ballet but is far above the level taught locally (which is not only a lower lever but actually incorrectly taught as compared to the pre-professional program she used to be involved in more than an hour’s drive away. She does a couple of local ballet classes per week just for physical and social activity but it’s not challenging. At All. She would probably love to keep dancing pre-pro in the winter/spring, but she chose participation in band over ballet (marching schedule in summer/fall is incompatible with a rigorous dance schedule.) Pre-pro ballet is an intensive year-round thing…there’s no way to do it for half a year. School clubs are mostly done in school. She finds it reasonably challenging but not stressful to maintain As (some low As) in her honors track of our average high school. If, in the future, she finds more things to become involved in through school…great! But right now she has a lot of time on her hands that she’s filling with social media. It’ not hard time-wise to fit in a little music practice (but if I should pull out for the sake of her independence I will do that.)

My younger son played violin from age 7 on - at his request. He had private lessons the first year, and was in school orchestras after that. In high school he was in both the special orchestra that met before school started and the regular one that met during the school day. He liked music, but he was no musician. He did not practice anywhere near half an hour a day. Nor did he practice every day. He did not practice the orchestra stuff at all at home - according to him he could play it better than most of the kids in the orchestra with the practice they did in class. (He was concert master of the freshman orchestra and third chair his senior year.) His private teacher asked him to practice more at practically every single lesson. He did not try to play in college and has not picked up a violin in years. I think he listens to music with more intelligence due to all the playing. I don’t think he regrets either not practicing more, or spending so much of his high school time on an activity he hasn’t kept up with. He may pick it up again eventually. You never know. My brother started playing the violin again when his kids took up various stringed instruments. I think he was mostly in orchestra because it was a really nice group of kids.

Having private lessons was actually a requirement of the more elite orchestra.

My kid was in high school marching/concert and jazz band plus the community youth symphony and had private lessons about 40 minutes away. The school music programs did not take much out of school practice since those accounted for 2 periods a day (on top of 6 academic periods). The youth symphony and private lessons did take practice, and he felt the consequences when he did not practice – from the lack of desired solos/roles in youth symphony to the quiet disappointment of his wonderful teacher. He might take a dip, and then see the consquences, and kick it back in gear to work his way back to the top. Kid did not practice daily unless he was about a month out from state individual competitions, then his competitive drive kicked in, and he would practice probably an hour a day. We stopped nagging by around the end of 9th grade, as it just made everyone miserable. He lived with the consequences with each ensemble/group/individual role, but mostly did what he needed to do to perform at a high level.

He went to college thinking he would continue in some way with his instrument, but he is also a recruited athlete, and decided that was his top priority. It’s a little sad not to hear him play anymore, but it enriched his high school experience, and will always be part of him, even if he is not playing now.

I was an enthusiastic if slacker sort of musician from age nine through college. I was rarely the model student, practicing set amounts of time, yet I always progressed, studying seriously for a year or two in college. Sometimes it was an hour, sometimes 5 minutes, usually much more the day prior to a lesson. With my own kids, I used the same maxim, that they needed to practice enough to progress, and putting in even a little each day was crucial.

Practice routines can be very hard to maintain. The Suzuki approach, to play every day you brush your teeth, I always thought was a good one. Even if it is just a brief 5 minute concentrated session, there is muscle memory being formed with each period of practice. Chances are, the 5 minutes morphes into more, and sometimes much more. Intelligent practice is the key, with attention to the details of technique and work on teacher identified challenging places in technique and music. Lazily running through half an hour of music is less beneficial.

My two violinists did well for themselves and played seriously through college, though have let it lapse since. They both played in community orchestras post college at a point, and maybe again.

I find it hard to believe that even your small town HS does not have after school clubs other than music and sports. Regardless of other options your D needs to determine the amount of time to devote to an instrument, dance or any other activity. Stop micromanaging her life and begin turning control over to her. Yes, she will make mistakes. But she will learn from them. Like many HS students she may find that she does not need the practice time to maintain her skills. Fine. She isn’t headed to Julliard. She likely needs some totally unscheduled time despite what you believe she needs. She is constantly growing and maturing. She needs to learn how to manage her time without it being filled for her. The freshman you know will, in just a few short years, transform into an independent young adult ready to face the world on her own (albeit in the college setting).

I did marching band and winter percussion in highschool and we were a highly competitive group. Our sports team didn’t perform well at all and our band was huge (200+ kids) so we were kind of like the only group that would bring home championships for our school. On average we would practice around 16 hours a week and it was expected for us to practice around 1hr -2hrs a day at home(To make sure we practiced at home we were assigned weekly video assignments that were counted as graded). Granted my percussion section was much more strict and selective compared to the rest of the band as we were chosen via auditions, and it was expected for us to place 1st-3rd in our state.

However the push to practice never came from my parents (in fact the had begged me to stop practicing so much several times). The drive to practice came partly from our instructors reminding us that we could be so much better if we did practice, and also from our own personal goals of wanting to be the best. I feel like forcing someone to practice will only make them fall out of love with the instrument. The want to practice has to come from within.It also depends on your goals if you don’t particularly care about winning, or you don’t want to continue music in college, or join competitive DCI/WGI groups it really doesn’t make sense to practice all the time when you could be focusing on other ECs and academics. If your goals is to just play an instrument leisurely that’s great!

I also agree with #47 about she will overtime develop her own regimented schedule. My freshman year I slacked a bit with practicing and as I realized I was falling behind I began to create my own schedule

My son plays lead trumpet for the HS Jazz Ensemble that performs twice a year at international competitions. He also plays in the HS Wind Ensemble. For fun, he plays in the pep band at basketball games. He does not intend to major in music, but would like to continue to play. Based on the practice schedule at school, he is playing at least an hour everyday. Add in a 45 minute lesson once a week and days both bands rehearse, he is easily pulling 8 hrs per school week. Given that, I don’t make a big deal about practicing at home. He’ll usually practice during the weekend maybe an hour total - more if there is a competition. Point is the kids who are really into music tend to know how much they need to push themselves. But as others here have said, each kid is different. However, I wouldn’t stress too much about enforcing practice time minimums.

To me the important distinction is the private lessons. My feeling is that private lessons are a privilege that carry a responsibility to take advantage of that privilege and be prepared. By the time my kids were in HS they had internalized this concept and were motivated to practice. My D stopped various lessons along the way because she either didn’t have the time or the motivation to practice for them anymore.
Since your D has a new private lesson teacher this may sort itself out between them as the teacher is likely to have the expectation that she is prepared for her lessons and making some forward progress. I would be inclined to give it some time and see what happens over the next few months but if she doesn’t start practicing after some time I might want to talk to her about her desire and motivation for continuing private lessons.

@wis, I’m going to take your words as coming from a place of helpfulness and kindness…yet I cringe a little if you’re characterizing me as a micromanaging parent. Is that really true of me? I really don’t know…but I think that the very fact that I’m questioning myself enough to ask the question here of other music parents, and my admitting that I may need to change course, and the fact that I’m hitting the “helpful” button on every single response (regardless of the position of the responder) because I do appreciate and consider the whole range of ideas people are offering…kind of signals that I’m not an incorrigibly controlling person… just trying to hit that appropriate middle ground. If anything, I tend to be pretty unstructured…so I’ve worked hard to compensate and make sure that I do all those “appropriate parent” things and not be negligent. My daughter is still in that very early transition to middle adolescence where some parental guidance is a good thing (I think) with a movement toward independence.

Many, many days (maybe most days now) pass where my daughter cheerfully goes up to her room (after a bit of afterschool chitchat), spreads her computer, phone, papers, books on her bed, and pretty much stays there (except to eat) until she goes to sleep at ten or eleven. On weekends this can be most of her waking hours unless there’s a specific random or scheduled event to go to (all/any of which SHE has elected to do.) Does this sound like I’m micromanaging/controlling her life? When I check up on her, she’s interweaving paper/book homework, computer homework, texting, computer games, web surfing and social media in a complex mosaic of multitasking and recreational screen time. Most kids do this to some extent these days, but there’s a lot of research coming out that suggests that this is not so great for the brain and body, much less for the young, developing brain, and there’s evidence that electronic media is designed to be powerfully additive. When I let her know (gently, kindly) my concerns about this and ask her to do her homework without the distraction of the computer or phone, she will tell me that the phone is necessary for collaborative projects and for the clarification among her friends of assignments that weren’t made clear in class, etc. and the computer is necessary for research and online homework via Edmodo. I don’ breathe over her, supervising these hours to find out how much of it is work and how much not. However, this means she can be sitting on her bed doing “homework” for the better part of seven or eight hours in the winter after school now that there is no marching band. She does get the homework done, but: is it really micromanaging on my part to wonder if asking a just-barely fifteen-year-old to interrupt the addictive electronic stew for 30 minutes to do something else in her life (such as practicing something that SHE said she’ like to get good at) is indicative of micromanaging or of an unhealthy parent/child dynamic?

A few minutes ago I asked her if there are other afterschool clubs/groups other than band, athletic teams or theater. She said most clubs (i.e. Spanish club, student government) meet just every few weeks in school. The normal academic schedule is interrupted for an hour or so while all clubs meet simultaneously and students choose to attend one or two. She said that mock trial and FBLA are the only ones she knows that meet after school and she’s not interested at this time. The larger community has a robotics club but that’s not her interest either. As far as ballet, I’m NOT controlling it and never have. I drove her for several years back and forth across a twisty mountain range in all weathers and all seasons to help her develop this exacting art/skill because she loved it. It was with some sadness and regret on BOTH her part and my part to end it…only because the time demands for it were growing as she advanced and she didn’t want to be doing homework in the car for 21/2 hours every afternoon/night on top of an exhausting schedule and I didn’t feel safe driving across mountains in the dark every school night on curvy high-speed roads often covered in snow or fog. But SHE still misses that type of ballet (and would likely choose to put in the hours if it were available locally) and felt the void of missing ballet when the excitement of marching band season was over. In the meantime, while she finds something else to fill that void, I thought that transferring some of the dedication she put into ballet might be well-invested in a half-hour of music practice instead of 30 more minutes of Instagram (in which she’s often looking at photos of her ballet friends in their audition shots for summer intensives.) I just mean to encourage her to invest in herself, and embrace HER life, that’s all.

@wis75, I don’t know if you have high school children now, or if yours are all grown …by the amount of posts you’ve accrued I’m going to guess that either you have many children or maybe one or two that are adults now. I have friends whose children (now in their twenties) were teens when social media was just gaining steam, and not every teen had phones, much less i-phones. Talking with my friends, I get the idea that the hold of electronics, and the difficulty of children being able to moderate their use is more powerful now than it was just a few years ago. The kids that happen to be intrinsically passionate about their activities can pull away from electronics for awhile more easily than the more moderate-personality kids who are not doing something compelling (to them.) Social media too easily becomes the default mode for the moderate kids who aren’t destined for Julliard. I think there are times for even non-domineering parents to step in and help guide our kids to a middle ground and I’m looking for that middle ground.

Since I started this thread daughter has had her second lesson with the private teacher and has practiced the special exercises he assigned. I’ll try the wait and see approach for now, and hope she grows to like practicing or at least the results of it. If not, I’ll support anything else she wants to do that doesn’t primarily involve staring at a screen.

Thanks, everyone for your insight and ideas…I’ve got a good range of things to think about and (unless other music parents want to continue the discussion) I’m OK with closing this thread.

" is it really micromanaging on my part to wonder if asking a just-barely fifteen-year-old to interrupt the addictive electronic stew for 30 minutes to do something else in her life (such as practicing something that SHE said she’ like to get good at) " - Maybe. You sound like a thoughtful, conscientious parent who will figure it out.

Isn’t it possible for her to stay in band without the private lessons? To me that seems a good way to maintain the social aspects without having the lesson burden / strife. As far as I know, most of the band kids at our hs taking private lessons were the serious musicians considering music major in college.

You do have valid concerns about electronics / teens. Just try to find a solution where you have minimal involvement. That way she’ll be ready to do her own time organization when she goes off to college. (Hopefully she’ll do some low key music there too - it’s such a great way to meet people “in your tribe”).

@colorado_mom

My DD took private instrument lessons all the way from third grade through her senior year of college. She did not major in music in college. But she did play in the college orchestra.

Practicing an instrument or joining a club shouldn’t be pushed because you don’t like the time she is spending on the computer. I remember when I was a teenager – I spent HOURS on the phone with my friends and boyfriends. As long as I could get away with. This is their equivalent of chatting on the phone. Are her grades good? Does she have activities she does participate in and enjoys? Don’t make this fight about your unhappiness with teen time spent on social media or doing other things online.

@Colorado_mom, thanks! No, she doesn’t have to have the lessons and if that becomes problematic we’ll stop. I don’t know the percentage of band kids who have private lessons at her high school since she’s just a freshman and I don’t know the parents of the older kids well enough to know that. But I know at least a good handful of the students in her grade that happen to be her friends (and those in her small section) are taking lessons. Her section is pretty level in skill (they are all freshmen except for a junior who switched instruments and is actually behind them.) DD is actually 1st chair for concert, another in her section is 1st for jazz band and yet another (who started in marching band in 8th grade) is 1st for marching. They’re good friends. I’m not worried about her getting behind the others, nor have I tried to get her to be a standout star …just the habit of semi-regular practice for its’ own sake and the satisfaction of improving. this was the norm in middle school…150 minutes required each week. If we were talking about a swim team it would just be understood that you get up and do an hour or more of laps before or after school so I’m not sure why this is controversial. It’s true that band class meets every day in school but I’d bet a good bit of that hour is taken up in getting the instruments out, settling in, talk/instruction. And playing in the group is different from polishing your individual sound.

The band is very competitive in marching…has been chapter chair for many years and this year won 2nd of 17 bands of their class in the regional championship. However, they won mostly on the strength
of their complex body movements/formations/integration with the color guard…where they fell a little short was in music quality. D is VERY into the competition aspect of the band as a whole (not for herself, personally against other band members.) She’s concerned about the fact that a lot of seniors who are the best instrumentalists are leaving (though not in her section.) So I’ve offered the point to her that going the extra mile and practicing a bit at home helps to keep the band as great as it is (which IS something she wants.) She also liked adjudication in middle school. I guess she’s a team spirit sort of girl and band is her team. Part of the team spirit is doing your best IMO.

Our kids all started piano around 5-6 (except the one who began with violin) and stayed in lessons into ninth grade. They also picked up band instruments in fourth grade and held on to them until ninth grade as well. (Band is such an easy way to break into high school that we felt it was important in case there were no fall sports.) When they get to high school band (especially marching band) good musicians are just not going to need to practice much, as the music isn’t that tough. Most practicing is to avoid trouble at lesson time, which is where the challenge typically comes from. Anyway, of the three that have made it that far, all stopped private lessons somewhere before tenth grade and one bailed on band completely to go with choir instead. But here’s the thing: they seem to play more piano/drums/violin without lessons than when they had to prep something specific on a schedule.

And this has been the key at our house: once a musician reaches a certain level of proficiency, they’ll play for joy rather than to avoid getting yelled at. If they can stay with it until they can have fun then you don’t have to push any longer. Ask your DD if lessons are a bother or if they add much to her love of music. If not, save some money and stress and just let her have fun. If she drops to fourth chair it’ll probably more accurately reflect the interest level of everyone concerned and reward the kids who do the work. I’m a big fan of natural consequences.

And here’s one other thing to consider for violinists: switch over to fiddling for a couple years. There’s Irish, Scottish, cajun, Appalachian and bluegrass, klezmer, Scandanavian and a raft of other styles. My daughter started in fiddle and drifted over to classical when things started to get stale, but it’s the same trick. She teaches at fiddle camps in the summer, does workshops and goofs around, but now that she’s in college she turned to classical for a bit and found a student orchestra where she can play in the pit for opera workshops and be in a couple concerts when her sport isn’t in season.

She sounds like she does band and music as a social event at least as much as a skill, so maybe instead of using her lessons and practice as a time management tool it might be time to encourage her to let it be a source of enjoyment. As many people have said, at some point she has to find her level of interest and proceed with her life. Have her consider the statement “I wish you wouldn’t have let me drop piano when I was in high school” and discuss how long she wants to work on her skills before that’s something she won’t ever have to say.

OP, I understand your concern about screen time/ electronics. I also worried about this a lot when my children were growing up. I was more or less successful limiting “screen time” when they were little, much less so once they were in HS though I still worried about it. Once they have devices in their rooms- phones, computers, etc. it is almost impossible to limit. Can’t take them away because they are using them for homework and trying to determine exactly how much they are doing that is SM, surfing, games, etc. versus homework is difficult unless you want to stand over them for hours which is really counterproductive. For better or worse I think once they are in HS school you have to mostly let them figure it out. The best you can do is encourage them in their outside activities to keep them somewhat occupied with other things as the electronics do seem to always be the default to fill a void.
Being on the other side of this now, S and D in their early twenties, I can tell you that I think they have successfully learned to balance the electronics with real life. Being ambitious, being involved in activities such as music and sports, having friends and wanting to have a social life has allowed them to learn to set aside the electronics and put them in perspective. The way you describe your D I think she will figure this out also, it sounds like she is motivated to be successful and has interests that she will want to continue to pursue. Despite all our worrying they do manage to figure it out.
Loved your post # 51! Good luck!

My kids took private lessons up until last year, and it was understood they would practice. I agree that it is rude not to practice when you have a private instructor giving you weekly assignments. This year they both decided to stop taking lessons and just play for the school, and I have not given them a hard time about practicing. They really only practice when they have a performance coming up or if they have an assignment. They both are very involved in many activities and music is just something they do for fun. Things around our house are a little bit less stressful without the lessons. Your D sounds like she is pretty good, however, so I can see your struggle.

At the end of the day you know your daughter better than any of us do. Some kids just need some extra encouragement to get going, so I think reminding her to practice is fine as long as its not a huge daily fight.

I feel your struggle with the electronics though. Taking away phones seems like a pointless effort since both of our kid’s laptops have imessage and internet. A better option for us has been to have them do their homework downstairs. Like cellomom2 said, the kids have to learn how to balance electronics on their own at some point.

Obviously not directly on point but still relevant, both my kids are garage-band rock musicians and typically spend 30 minutes to an hour-plus playing every day, with some sort of “band” practice session for a few hours each weekend. I very much doubt either one major/minors in music at college or pursues any sort of music-related career, although it certainly is a serious activity for them. Their school does not offer much in the way of music, just choir as an elective and no band of any sort, which only my younger son is taking as an actually class.