How much editing is ethical?

Parents Forum
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<p>My kids are all in or past college, but sometimes I get essays from friends’ kids in the community, or on CC, and I just don’t know how much to comment.</p>

<p>Let me give you a typical example:</p>

<p>Kid writes: “The problems that are predominate appear to cause more results.”</p>

<p>I want to send back this:
“The predominant problems appear to generate results”</p>

<p>because I don’t want to spend all day writing questions like,
“Is ‘predominate’ a verb or adjective?”
"Consider a stronger word for ‘cause’ "</p>

<p>What does it mean to “edit”? If I do my heavyhanded thing, as I would on my own writing, I feel as though their essay won’t sound consistent with all their other short answers.</p>

<p>I also feel that the original sentence will tank their application, and some of these kids have good ideas but don’t write well.</p>

<p>I want to help but not over-help.</p>

<p>If this is the KIND of editing that private school counselors, and hired guns are doing for privileged kids, then as Steve Colbert says, “SO CAN I” for middle class kids.</p>

<p>But maybe that’s out-of-touch. I have no idea what’s going on with these hired counselors. It’s hard to get an honest read. </p>

<p>I’m at a total loss with this. I could so easily help these kids with some solid editing, not the kind of minimalist garbage notes they get from their English teachers, “wrong word” or “unclear.”</p>

<p>Thoughts? Don’t beat me up too badly, my intentions are good (I think)</p>

2

<p>For your example sentence, I would simply tell the writer that the sentence is awkward. H should try to reword and/or restructure it in order for it to make more sense. That way, he can construct a better sentence without sacrificing any of his writing style.</p>

3

<p>I agree with Handyandy – when I have helped students, I’ve highlighted problem sentences or given general advice. The only exception is when it is obviously just a typographical error, such as pointing out a misspelled word, or a sentence where a word is omitted or repeated.</p>

4

<p>If you were working for a newspaper, and editing, you would go with:

</p>

<p>That would be the correct way to write it; but I agree with the other two posters that a suggestion to clarify the sentence would be helpful.</p>

5

<p>I’d loan them my copy of Strunk&White :wink: . Agree with Handyandy.</p>

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<p>P3T,
I give you credit for trying to edit and teach. I stopped, because of this same dilemma. When I helped a friend’s S last year, I could verbally make the specific comments. I would go over first P in detail, then just highlight the rest. Mostly, I encouraged this boy to write with his honest voice, not to use words he was unfamiliar with. The boy I tried to help also used run-on sentences.</p>

<p>As you are one of the most genuine voices on CC, I doubt anyone would question your intentions.</p>

7

<p>I agree with other posters. Rewriting the sentence is too much editing. Sure, the hired guns might do it–I don’t know-- but if they do, that’s too much editing also. The essay needs to be in the kid’s voice.</p>

<p>Strunk&Whilte is fun, especially the illustrated version. My son says it helped him a lot in the verbal section of the SAT.</p>

8

<p>With my own kids, I’d identify, without fixing, grammar errors if there were any; generally there weren’t.</p>

<p>I’d point out areas where I felt voice could be strengthened, or there were redundancies, stuff like that. On one short essay of S’s, I suggested that the paragraph order didn’t flow well. I never offered words or re-writing of any kind.</p>

<p>Professionally, I spend hours a day “correcting” essays, and my approach to my own kids’ writing comes out of my work. On my students’ essays, I circle errors (though I make it clear I might not catch them all–they are still responsible), I often but not always identify the error (verb problems, run-ons, fragments, etc.) If a sentence doesn’t read right, I’ll say “vague”, “awkward” “unclear” but will not re-write. I’ll add more global comments–use more details, supporting evidence, strengthen thesis, less passive voice, etc. A couple paragraphs of general comments, too.</p>

<p>It is extremely labor intensive, but–unlike you I get paid for it!:slight_smile: I do think, though, that explaining there is a problem, rather than fixing it, is the correct approach.</p>

<p>I had a friend, a fellow writing teacher, who took a job with a tutoring company. She was doing well there, but finally quit because she realized that they were expecting her to pretty much write the essays for the kids.</p>

<p>However, even though transgressions abound, I think you (we) should uphold the standard of leaving the actual words in the student’s hands.</p>

9

<p>As a teacher, I would say that actually correcting the sentence crosses the line. As an editor, I would tell you to lose the waffle words “appear to generate results” and have the courage of your convictions.</p>

<p>This is the problem with correcting essays. You need to decide what role you have. If you are teaching, not editing, you must teach. Therefore, you indicate which sentences/paragraphs/etc. cause difficulties, and expect the student to work through the difficulties him/herself.</p>

10

<p>

This is my belief,too. No need for some crusade mantality to even up what is done for the rich and other classes. We actually have no idea if heavy handed editing is the norm. It’s like anything else that bugs us as being unfair – we hear of one incidenct & imagine it’s just the tip of the iceburg when it might be just one incident.</p>

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<p>I also teach writing, and in many cases, modeling is a valid teaching tool. Editing the sentence provides a clear example of the changes the teacher finds desirable. Many students cannot understand without concrete examples. I often preface these suggestions with innocuous phrases such as, “How about something like…” to produce the “aha” experience.</p>

<p>I college admissions essays I think it is okay to rewrite some clunky sentences. The college essay is not a teaching tool. This has been debated at length, and I do understand the ethical problems here, but I think kids get so many legs up in so many ways that a rewritten sentence or two is very benign. An entirely rewritten essay crosses the line for me.</p>

<p>Rewriting kids’ academic essays in an entirely different matter. They have to do those themselves and learn by doing.</p>

<p>dmd77: I like the cleverness of your exemplification. You’re obviously very good at what you do.</p>

<p>Cross posted with SS. I see we disagree, but I was not responding to the above post.</p>

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<p>I agree, mythmom, that modeling is a great tool for teaching writing. But the college essay, as clearly stated in all the application instructions, is suposed to reflect the student’s voice & demonstrate his writing ability. They are not supposed to be heavily edited. Highlighting an awkward or wordy sentence is fine. Maybe even telling the student to evaluate each & every word and make sure it is necessary, and see if the thought could be expressed better in fewer words. Or telling him to check his tenses. But not rewriting it for him. You could demonstrate modeling by picking a few favorite sentences from fine authors. Rewrite those sentences in awkwad ways. Then show both to the student, point out the improvements, & he’ll begin to see how smooth, well constructed sentences should flow. That way, you haven’t touched his work, but have demonstrated how he can improve his own essay with these techniques.</p>

<p>Paying is dealing with an ethical dilemma. As with most dilemmas of this nature, if you are feeling uncomfortable with your actions, they are usually not the correct ones to be taking. It would be a really bad start for a student to begin an academic careeer by submitting work that really wasn’t his. I know Paying doesn’t want to set a poor example for any kid, or send the message that cheating is O.K. because everyone else does it. If she weren’t struggling with her instinct to “over-help,” she wouldn’t have posted.</p>

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<p>For my kids, I usually just told them verbally areas that I thought needed help. Though I’m not a teacher, I think I’m usually pretty good at catching errors in grammar or awkward usage. But my kids are more creative writers than I am, so I really hesitate to offer too much in the way of specific suggestions. I like to hear their thinking – I just tried to point out sentences that got in the way of conveying their intentions. I did feel, however, that if I “corrected” something in writing, it was crossing a line in some sense.</p>

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<p>This is a really relevant topic. My daughter had problems with organizational structure, elaboration, and sentence construction throughout High School. Just pointing out the need to clarify, eliminate wordiness, or the like doesn’t work unless the student had a very strong elementary/middle school background or has a natural feel for conciseness and clarity. As mythmom points out, concrete examples are needed–seems to me this is a basic principle of teaching and learning. I’ve always loved writing and it was frustrating to me to see my D struggle (she also has a learning disability that affects this). So I worked with her on many HS writing assignments, and yes, I rewrote many sentences but always explaining the reason for them and trying to derive general principles she could apply later. She was also helped greatly by a history teacher who would spend time explaining overall organization of expository writing to her.</p>

<p>By the time she got to her college application essays, she was able to respond to “you need to eliminate wordiness here” and other general statements very well. But this would not have happened without the previous painful exercises.</p>

<p>Amazingly she seems to be getting decent grades on papers as a freshman at a reputedly tough college. I’m keeping my fingers crossed!</p>

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<p>I think it’s hard to strike the right balance here unless you are talking to them face to face. In a conversation you can address such things as run on sentences and the passive voice without substituting your writing for theirs. If you’re just marking up their essay and returning it to them it’s harder. I’m not sure how you handle a sentence like your example; I don’t understand either the original or the edited version, so it may just be that the underlying concept actually doesn’t really make much sense. If that’s the case, it really is the student’s “voice” - leave it alone or suggest they start over.</p>

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<p>P3T,
I wrestle with this a lot, too. When my kids were younger, I would give them examples of more explicit corrections so they would understand WHY there was an error, but now I take the “awk” or “frag” route – they’ve had enough grammar to figure it out. I never edit a draft without a chat, where I give my impressions and general thoughts.</p>

<p>DS1 tends to wordiness and taking FOREVER to make his point. Once he gets there, he’s incredibly cogent. We’ll go over an essay and I’ll ask “how can you tighten this?” “What is the point you’re trying to make?” “Can you explain to me what this means?” A lot of times (and this ESPECIALLY works with my younger son, who’s very auditory), they will blurt out what they really meant. I then tell them, “Now put THAT thought on paper, just as you told me.”</p>

<p>Sometimes I bite my tongue at something one of the kids has written, but it’s their work. It MUST be in their voices. I tell DS2 “I can’t put words in your mouth!”</p>

17

<p>I totally agree that a conversation is much more useful in getting students where they need to be. My best teaching goes on in my office with the student’s work in front of both of us.</p>

<p>Many times, having the writer read his/her words out loud helps to show where there are problems in the writing. They can hear it when they don’t see it.</p>

18

<p>Face-to-face interaction seems to me to be one of the best ways to go over the short-hand comments (e.g., awk/frag/rewrite) that an editor makes and not end up in the position of having an editor rewrite large parts of a college essay. As someone mentioned, there are students who often don’t understand that a sentence is awk or frag and they do best with some examples. It’s easier to give examples when students come in and discuss what they’ve written. One of my kids had a high school English teacher who taught an expository writing course for seniors–which was a place where kids got to write their college essays during the first quarter of the year. She’d have them come in an discuss her comments and then go back and rewrite. They did this 3 times and at the end of that quarter, most of the kids had a well written essay that was in their voice.</p>

19

<p>“I’d loan them my copy of Strunk&White.”</p>

<p>There’s a new illustrated version of this book, Elements of Style (still a small paperback…sells for $10 at Amazon) that makes a nice gift. I gave one to each of my HS kids.</p>

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<p>Actually, you’d lend your copy of S&W.</p>