@ucbalumnus The numbers for GA would be better, but students have to keep there grades up to keep the Zell Miller and Hope Scholarships. I personally like that, and now that the state has begun to give a .5 bonus GPA boosts for the scholarship eligibility for what are considered harder college courses (recent change made in 2017), I expected those numbers to get even better. And the data set looks to be comparing all graduating students, but it would be nice to separate out GA students from OOS students. The average debt of our state flagship UGA (23,403) is definitely not bad for an education at a top 50 school.
What accounts for the greatly varying levels of debt at the various Georgia publics? E.g. $12,345 at University of North Georgia versus $30k+ for Clayton State, Columbus State, GCSU, GT, and GSU.
Really, states like Florida, Georgia and Tennessee have figured out free tuition to those with 3.5 gpas and ACT above about 30. The majority of high school grads are not able to afford 4 year colleges unless they have been saving, take loans, or work. Because the states with BF or Hope are putting the major chunk of FA dollars into merit, that doesn’t leave a lot for need based aid or merit other than these programs. Just miss the BF cut off or didn’t have one of the requirements? Sorry Charlie, no do-overs. UF with its ~8000 freshmen has 300 merit scholarships and not a lot of need based aid at all (other than federal). So the many many 3.0/25 ACT students get no BF and when they look to UF or FSU they don’t get much either. These aren’t bad students. In fact, the 3.9 student with a 24 ACT doesn’t get anything either. One of my daughter’s friends was in the Top 20 (so top 5%) of the class and her ACT was 27, so she only got the lower BF, or about $2,300 per year (now it would be about $5k, I think). Great student, just not a great standardized test taker.
Having a post-grad year doesn’t help at all. BF requirements have to be met by August of high school graduation year (which is an extension - it was by HS grad so one couldn’t even take ACTs in May or June).
Some numbers on Florida and Bright Futures. Keep in mind that tuition at any Florida public university is about $6,300 a year and at a CC it’s about $3,000.
This year, the state expects 57,179 students will be awarded the highest level of BF, which is 100% tuition/fees +$300 a semester for books, etc. Students must have a 3.5 grade point average and score at least a 1290 on the SAT or a 29 on the ACT (or earn an IB or AICE HS degree).
The state expect’s 47,740 students will be awarded the next level of BF, which pays 75% (recently raised from 50%) of tuition. Students must have a 3.00 grade point average and score at least 1170 on the SAT and 26 on the ACT.
In total, the state is budgeting $583 million for BF in 2019-2020.
At UF, since the middle 50% of admitted students have SAT: 1280-1430 and ACT: 28-32. 90%+ of the in-state students are awarded BF (most at the highest level).
The state also sponsors need based programs. More than 195,000 students will benefit from the state’s largest need-based aid program, known as “student assistance grants.” The average award this year is projected at $1,378.
Also, more than 39,000 state residents attending private colleges and universities in Florida will benefit from the “Effective Access to Student Education” grants program —- which in the past was known as the Florida Resident Access Grant program. The maximum award for those scholarships, which total $137 million, increased from $3,300 to $3,500 this academic year.
UF will award need based aid to low SES students, however, keep in mind that most students will already have BF, SAG, Pell grants,etc.
UF also awards about 300 Machen Florida Opportunity Scholarships (MFOS) a year to low SES students (total family income is less than $40,000).
MFOS are designed to ensure that those who meet eligibility requirements will not have to work or borrow to attend UF, but rather will have their need fully met with grants and scholarships…Awards are offered to Florida resident first-time-in-college freshmen students and undergraduate renewal students from economically disadvantaged backgrounds whose parents have not earned a bachelor’s degree.
I know the University of North Georgia (UNG) well because I work in that area and I have many co-workers whose kids go to UNG. UNG has a large portion of their student population who commute from home which is one great way to keep costs down. Georgia Tech has a higher debt level due to a larger percentage of the student population staying more than 4 years along with having the largest percentage of out of state students (almost 40% paying the 50K per year premium price) attending the school of any in-state institution in GA. The new GPA boost that was enacted for harder classes was in direct response to Georgia Tech STEM students struggles to keep Zell Miller (a large percentage of GT entering freshman from GA get that full tuition scholarship) The other schools you listed have among the poorest student bodies of any institutions of high learning in GA (check out the pell grant eligible numbers), with many families unable to chip in anything at all for their student’s college education. I haven’t seen the numbers in a while, but a significant percentage of students lose the Zell Miller and Hope Scholarships due to not keeping the GPA requirements so students keeping up their GPA up is a key component needed to keep costs down.
That is a false statement for Georgia. ~70% off tuition for just a 3.0 GPA in high school and a 3.0 GPA in college is a great deal. The full tuition deal (26 ACT/1200 SAT and a 3.7 Georgia Futures GPA in high school along with a 3.3 GPA in college) is a significantly lower than a 30 ACT (equivalent to 1370 SAT) and a 3.5 GPA.
“Public college” is now a very ambiguous terms. Some state universities receive a lot of public money, while others (i.e., University of Michigan) receive increasingly little. That’s why Michigan has started referring to itself as “state assisted.” The state of public university funding is a tragedy. Time was Pell Grants would cover most of their tuition for in-state students. Now that is rarely the case.
The British approach is one possibility, albeit it is hard to believe that just 15 years ago British universities were free for British residents. At present, the UK loan system is better. It is always income contingent, it is collected via taxes but only after your income hits a certain threshold, and the entire balance is written off after a certain period of time. And of course Scottish students go for free (most British students also live in ‘dorms’ unlike German students).
I left out the importance of technical colleges and how Georgia’s system for higher education even provides up to full tuition for GA residents who decide not to attend a 4 year institution. The eligibility requirements are not hard to meet and GA students have a myriad of career options. It is hard to complain about GA educational options, because I know other states have much less support when it comes to higher education. You do not have to be a 3.5 GPA/30 ACT student to benefit from educational funding in GA.
States have come up with awards to their most talented students to retain them. Note that NY specifically targets STEM majors. Free tuition at a SUNY for them if in top % of class in high school.
I understand the strategy. I understand it’s beneficial to states to retain their top students. These students already tend to have a lot of options and they get more. When a commodity is valued and rare, it get money.
I’m not focusing on those students. With more money given to community colleges, the states can start to “grow their” own competent students from those who did not do so well as children. They are adults now and optimal opportunity to hone neglected skills makes sense to me. The jobs are out there but not available for those not educated to do them. No way these folks are upper 10% of class or have test scores that get them certain results. I’d like to see Cc made easy and available when the student is ready to focus on further education.
@cptofthehouse NY excelsior scholarship makes SUNY, CUNY and CC tuition free to students whose families make less than 150,000. That’s an excellent deal and opens up fantastic opportunities for kids who live near enough to one of these schools to commute. But NY is very large and many students will not live near enough. Room and board at the SUNY schools is very expensive.
Where does a state like FL find the funds?
@lookingforward I’m going to hazard a guess a portion of it is taxes generated from tourism. Hopefully I can post this as an example of the tax paid on a hotel room from a USToday article:
“So if the state hotel tax is 7 percent, the local hotel tax is 5 percent and you’re also paying a state sales tax of 3 percent on the room, your total tax load will be 7 percent + 5 percent + 3 percent = 15 percent. Now, do the calculation described above to calculate what that’ll cost you. (On a $169 room that ends up being $169 x 0.15 = $25.35 extra per night is added.)”
It taxes everything (except income). All those Disney guests are paying sales tax every single day. All services are taxed (dry cleaning, car washes). High sales taxes on hotel and restaurant bills. A lot of toll roads. Higher gasoline taxes than in surrounding states.
https://www.gafutures.org/media/187610/faqs-hope-zm-scholarship-012918.pdf says the following:
HOPE: 3.0 HS GPA to get, 3.0 college GPA to continue.
Zell Miller: 3.7 HS GPA and 1200 SAT or 26 ACT to get, 3.3 college GPA to continue.
Looks like students in the lower 3.x HS GPA range would be most at risk of getting and then losing HOPE.
https://www.ajc.com/news/local/few-hold-onto-hope-for-whole-time-college/PbzRQqroWD8XhHpqon5DbL/ says that only 3 out of 10 students with HOPE keep it through graduation. Percentage varies by college, presumably in relation to admission selectivity (e.g. UGA 60.9%, 15.6% at Clayton State).
There does not seem to be much information on percentage of students keeping versus losing Zell Miller.
However, it does mean that students from low SES backgrounds who need the scholarships to pay for college need to meet higher academic standards than those from high SES backgrounds for whom the scholarships are a bonus (but their parents will pay even if they do not get or lose the scholarships). Since students from low SES backgrounds more often had lower quality high schools to attend, the college GPA requirements to renew are likely more difficult for them than for students from high SES backgrounds who more often had higher quality high schools.
@ucbalumnus Yeah, government transparency is a problem. I have heard or seen some bad numbers in past years (50% of students ended up losing the scholarship after year 1). I haven’t heard any new numbers since the College GPA booster for for calculating Hope and Zell Miller has gone into effect, but a college student taking 4 classes designated to get the boost due to rigor and getting all B’s would have a 3.5 GPA calculated for Hope and Zell Miller scholarships today so I would think that the numbers are higher today than the numbers before the changes. It would just be nice to find some current data on the subject.
^ that’s the nature of competitive perks. You meet a standard.
So states without the massive tourism advantage in Fl…?
@ucbalumnus Low SES students definitely have more to lose if they can not keep a 3.0 GPA or 3.3 GPA in college in GA. No disagreements with that. They also have more to gain by keeping the 3.0 GPA or 3.3 GPA because that money is a lifeline to continue their education. I understand their plight better than most (I was a low SES kid who lost a full ride scholarship and had to sit out of school and work before going back to school) and those students must understand what is truly at stake. I personally believe in giving all kids who are striving for more, a shot, but low SES kids will always have a higher price to pay when they don’t take advantage of the opportunities given.
What “should” public colleges cut so that the tuition is what people think it “should” be?
The truth is, without alternative funding, cutting tuition necessitates cutting classes, faculty, programming, mental health assistance … putting off maintenance and technology updates … etc. Believe me, it’s not all climbing walls and lazy rivers that drive prices.
I wish I knew the answer to the problem of too-high tuition, but I don’t. I can assure you that people who do the sort of important administrative work I do in public colleges are not very well paid. Admissions officer and financial aid officer positions at my state flagship want experience and pay $35,000/year.
NY’s Excelsior helps a lot. In one fell swoop, it gave free tuition to many NYers. There are conditions, the most onerous bring that it requires the student to be full time—30 credits. It’s also strict in the continuity of courses and if you lose it, that’s it. It does not cater to the needs of those who are the neediest
It also doesn’t help those whose parents can’t or won’t pay the money despite the income. The AGI cut off is $125k this year. With high housing costs, complex family situations., there are s number of kids who can’t get the award because their parents make too much but the parents won’t pay. Some of those parents can’t pay. Nearly half of those who apply for the Excelsior don’t qualify for it.
Still, it’s a step forward. I’m well aware of SUNY room and board fees. I’ve paid them. I’m working with some families right now on getting college funds. None of those kids are going to be taking 15 credits i a term. The one local SUNY tends to have courses in 4 credit increments, so that means 4 courses. Not going to happen. 3 for full time status a challenge enough and necessary to get decent funding.
I’d prefer a cleaner free CC model. Tennessee spent quite a while putting theirs together unlike NY— just jumped right in. I’m looking more into bringing the lowest incomes up the socio economic wall rather than cherry picking those already well on their way. We can used more educated workers, especially in certain industries. I think we can train more of our own.