I see these issues as states issues. I know I don’t want to pay for the problems of other states (Illinois comes to mind). As far as the plan to pay off 50K of college debt on a sliding income scale and making public colleges free, what happens when the middle class and low income people are laid off so that the rich can use that money to pay the taxes necessary so that students can go to college for free? There is a delicate balance to keep any economy from overheating or from going into a recession and a 1.25 trillion dollar tax hike is like using a sledgehammer to insert a thumbtack into a cork board.
I just happen to pass the news showing clips of Venezuelan protests this afternoon, and we as a nation have to think through these policies from end to end or we may be on our way to a similar economic devastation. We have states who have made college possible for a large portion of residents if they make the right choices (choosing the economically feasible option versus the prestige/or sometimes selfish option) and states should be looking at “best practice states” as a beacon and tailor options based on their own citizens.
Those states have plans, but those plans aren’t for everyone to go to the flagship free. In Florida for free tuition, for instance, to get Bright Futures you have to have an ACT of 29, a gpa of 3.5, two years of a foreign language, etc. And even then, not very many are going to get into UF and must ‘settle’ for the non-flagships. UF is very holistic in admissions and there are a lot of disappointed kids on decision day, even those with 3.8/ACT 32. Bright Futures has only been ‘free’ for 2 years; before that it was about 1/2 tuition, and now the students still pay other fees and room and board. Great deal, but not free or debt free.
My two kids were good students but not good test takers. One got the lower level (now would pay about 1/2 tuition) and the other didn’t get BF so went to school OOS for much cheaper. The one who stayed instate with her lower BF award graduated cum laude in engineering but standardized tests were not her forte.
Minnesota kids aren’t going to school for free or debt free. Tennessee kids are if they want to go to community college.
Even in the great state of California, only the chosen few get to go to Cal or UCLA and the others have to settle for another UC or a CSU, and many many students can’t go for free. The state has a plan for low income students to go for a low costs (not debt free) and middle class kids are still paying and borrowing.
It’s not that everyone will go for free to whatever university they choose.
I do feel that lower income kids who made it into their flagship should be able to go for free.
(Which is different from “everybody should get into the flagship”!)
All these states’ lower middle and middle class residents are in much better shape than average.
I don’t see UCs outside of B/LA as settling, nor CSUs.
BF nowadays DOES pay for full tuition at any public university a Florida kid gets into. Obviously not all will get into UF. But kids who qualify for BF have the option of attending. MANY students in other states can’t.
So, these States’ solutions could stay in place and the Federal government look at the other kids. Those who dont qualify for Bright Futures, those who don’t qualify for Cal Grants.
Or start by deciding no one will have to pay more than their EFC to attend their flagship or whatever public university they got into.
@ChangeTheGame : seriously, don’t worry about Venezuela. Venezuela is like the Gulf States, a developing country that is dependent on ONE resource as a source of growth for its economy and is ruled as a dictatorship. The US is nothing like Venezuela (nor the Gulf States). You could worry the US will become Germany or Sweden or Portugal but the US is even stronger than these countries, due to size, variety of resources, population… We’re a long, long, long way from being the # eonomy to becoming “developing”. What is handicaping us right now is college debt being an anchor aroung young people’s neck, impacting the birth rate and housing market (both of which have worrisome implications, long-term). But, with every reason to worry about so many things, don’t worry about Venezuela as if it were a sort of dystopian future, it’s not within the realm of possibility.
Taxing people who make 50 million a year and thus have excellent accountants isn’t going to bankrupt them. (Yup, I actually read the Business Insider article and they did lay out the downsides well, too. I still think the upsides are worth the downsides, and it’ll be easy to re-evaluate in a couple years.)
Taxing Amazon, which managed to pay zero in taxes last year, would just be fair, especially wrt small businesses v. big businesses rates, and if it helps alleviate young people’s debt and/or reduces the cost of college, it’s not just fair, it’s a very good thing for us all.
We can fix this at the State level. We can fix this at the Federal level. We can fix it at both State and Federal level. But we must fix this.
While we are asking for free stuff, can I get a pony as well?
It doesn’t matter what a minority of people think should be. It only matters what a majority of voters are willing to pay for. And it is apparent that a majority of voters think don’t agree with Warren’s idea, because:
It is ridiculously expensive
It depends upon a wealth tax, which has been tried in many countries, and generally abandoned because it unworkable.
It penalizes those who have already paid off loans to help those that haven't
It doesn't consider whether a student has the merit to succeed in college
I contrast that with Georgia’s very good state model. The key components that I understand about it are:
Merit based
Up to full tuition funding at Georgia's public universities. Only $4000 for private universities
Continued eligibility depends upon satisfactory academic progress in college
Up to 7 years to complete a degree
@ChangeTheGame, do the Georgia programs continue to have bi-partisan support?
Only covers tuition and books (not fees, not room and board) for those who receive the TOP level of BF, and there are 3 levels. The second level receives less, the third level is mostly for community college and trade schools.
I think one problem with both the Florida and Georgia programs is because they are based on stats, they are awarded disproportionately to higher SES students who have more test prep and disproportionately to non-minority students.
To me, merit should be defined as “got into a university”. The same kids clearly aren’t going to be attending Georgia Tech and Georgia Perimeter (except for the GA Perimeter kids who are there in a transition agreement with GTech). So, if you got into a public university in your state you should be able to attend. Merit shouldn’t be based an arbitrary number (I agree with @twoinanddone - at first, BF required only an ACT 20) but on what you’ve achieved.
Criteria could be made more stringent for the lower tier public universities, with more students that have marginal credentials (like a GPA around 2.2) directed to serious vocational/trade higher education.
Each at their level should be able to attend tuition-free.
I agree that there needs to be continued eligibility with satisfactory academic progress and a time limit to complete a degree. The help can’t be thrown at kids with no accountability.
All “tuition free” college plans have the caveat that they don’t include room/board, which is fine for middle class kids but not for lower income kids who can’t commute.
On the one hand, we have to start somewhere. On the other hand, “tuition free” for someone who can’t afford to pay for room/board is an empty offer.
The wealth tax worked in France as an example of solidarity even if it wasn’t a HUGE amount. It was called “Solidarity Tax on Fortune” or ISF (with the double meaning of wealth and good luck). The fact Emmanuel Macron cancelled it has been a recurring complaint against him, it’s even been called his “original sin” (the tax no longer taxes luxury cars, yachts, private jets, art and jewelry; it only taxes rental properties. Many people felt that luxury cars, private jets, or Masters’ paintings should still be taxed and in fact considered the new system left the highest capitals off the hook whereas the regular upper middle class and upper class was targeted.) Every time a maternity ward or a post office is closed, it’s put in the context of the “ISF”.
The US is nowhere near this type of system though, in part because culturally the concept of solidarity isn’t essential to the US national self concept the way it is in France. So, a French-style wealth/solidarity taxis unlikely to happen.
Someone upthread suggested a “Post Grad Year” for kids who need remedial education. And it’s true that it’s ridiculous to go to college for remedial education. High schools could have “PG Year” Day or Evening classes, open to HS graduates of any age who are lacking credits or grades to get into universities/trade programs. Community colleges would be free from offering very basic courses (for instance, Math up to Algebra2: in PGY; Precalculus: Community College or university. Literacy: PGY- no CC if you can’t pass the literacy skills test, you have to take the PGY class first…) It’d likely be cheaper at the HS and lift a burden from Community Colleges + avoid unnecessary debt for the least prepared students. The downside would be how to finance PGY since it’d be taken out of the CC budget but not all school districts have a CC whereas all would have to pay for the PGY… ← I’m no policy maker and I see this is complicated. But it seems to me that keeping remedial education in HS would be cheaper than at CC.
Ponies for everyone makes no sense. Opportunity for more education does. We need more Americans educated and able to do jobs for which we are importing people. NY has a policy where top 10% high schoolers in STEM studies at SUNYs get free tuition on condition they stay in state for 5 years. That’s because we need more STEM proficient employees.
A more educated populace is a boon too. More choices. That money is such an impediment to higher education is a crying shame in this great country of ours.
I think redistributing some of where the federal, and state government flow for higher education can make a huge difference. I would address the tuition aspect first with room and board privisuknsbonly for those who are not within a commutable distance to a college. More satellite courses could fix that as well if there are enough people in such an area. With online courses these days, a lot can be done for little money and huge impact. More directed counseling on options available is the most essential part of this.
Im not talking about freesleep away college, private college, OOS state college or even state flagship or other specific state schools as a first step. It is sadly a fact of life that there are a lot of people who cannot afford to take courses after highschool. Education ends after that. Not just kids, but people. With newly graduated high schoolers, if the parents won’t or can’t pay, can’t or won’t fill out the FAFSA , no college. It’s a no move lose for a lot of these kids. Some of them just might be able to do so much better with the opportunity to take more classes. Not necessarily right away either. When they start thinking about it.
It would not change most of how things are now. Just expand the community college network. Some CCs are pitiful. Underfunded, undersubscribed, underappreciated. I think we can do a lot better with just a little bit more focus. I’d like the community college to be an available stepping stone to all.
Money still there to attract the students a state wants at varjous state schools. I get why the top 10% get the STEM offer in NY. I get why state schools have merit money for OOsers too. Not going to touch those things in my plan.
Most of the kids in upscale areas do not consider CC as the main goal right after high school, though many end up using the services of the local CC at times in their lives. A stronger, better CC infrastructure would benefit everyone.
Many math HS teachers can teach Algebra but the students in the class may not be receptive or able to understand it because of maturity issues, of personal issues, of classmates chatting/distracting noise, of not seeing the point/not wanting to make the effort, of needing repetition/spiralling, needing better study methods…
If they need to take Algebra for something and are 18+ they’ll have more incentive than at 15.
And if they don’t need to, then they take what they need to take, especially literacy (although apparently the #1 stumbling block is algebra).
Earlier you asked about R/B: most cafeterias aren’t open 24/7 and while they’re “all you can eat”, students don’t eat like it’s their one and only meal of the day and they have to optimize the cost while loading up on calories for the day ;)… and if you look at the cost of a double room, there’s no way it’s “at cost” - the cost of R&B is astronomical, even accounting for bundling.
I worked with a lot of low income folks this past year. Many are stuck in mud. Many young enough, but settled down enough to give going back to school a try. Many see no way to send their kids to college. A free option as a stepping stone would make a huge difference.
The area Is trying to come up with solutions on an advocate basis. There are programs and things parchworked so that those who can maneuver the system can findva wayvtheiugh the education labyrinth. Satellite classes from the local CC, 45 minutes away from town have been set up. A bus runs to the CC and back during work week. Also to local college about an hour away. But need to make all of this seamless and smooth.
I really like the direction NY is going. But it won’t quite be debt free at the the big 4 year SUNY’s. Room, board and fees at Binghamton is over $18000 a year. Federal loans won’t cover that amount. The excelsior scholarship only covers tuition. Federal loans plus pell won’t cover that amount. How does a student without family support make that work? My guess is that answer is going to be two years at community college first, but that really isn’t appropriate for all students who are more than ready for advanced work.
For kids living within commuting distance of a CUNY (which means all residents of the 5 boroughs, plus a chunk of Westchester County, Long Island) there are solid 4 year choices which are NOT CC’s. The entire premise of the CUNY system was that a kid lived at home- even before the price of a decent rental apartment skyrocketed.
CUNYs are a great system, indeed! Excellent value and designed for commuters.
For kids Upstate though, the situation isn’t as good. There are good choices, even CC’s with dorms for kids who can’t commute to a CC (with weather and mountains, it can be tricky in the winter), but with Excelsior being last dollar it doesn’t cover dorming so we’re still not talking “debt free”. But it’s still a huge step forward compared to many states.
I don’t disagree with anything you said and agree that the US has a long way to get to Venezuelan levels of inflation and financial struggle. But if I had 50 million dollars and the government was looking for a new way to “procure” my family’s wealth, I would take “countermeasures” and have no doubt that those “adjustments” would hurt the American economy as a whole. I am just saying to be careful.
@hebegebe The Georgia programs do have Bipartisan support. There have still some disagreements around making adjustments to how lottery funds are distributed, but the overwhelming consensus has been positive.
NY is doing some of the right things, IMO. I don’t like all of the new developments but then life’s not perfect.
In a high housing cost area, it can be challenging still to work out college. If parents are simply strapped, there are no funds for college and there are a lot of such situations around here. I know of them personally. Low 6 figures doesn’t always mean money left for thousands in college costs , especially when the parents are living a bit too big. With complicated family situations, high rents , car expenses , I see a lot of kids who don’t qualify for aid, yet their parents don’t have the chunk of money to pay something so mundane as tuition. Without a car, access to public transportation can be tough.
My hairdresser was struggling with her two kids going to a CUNY and to Westchester Community College. They were a year apart. She owned her salon but the income and expenses did not leave a lot for the kids’ college. Getting the kids to collegecas they juggled part time jobs was not easy and they both borrowed to pay the tuition. I don’t think either went on to a 4 year degree.
The 4 main universities are in Long Island , Buffalo, Binghamton and Albany, hardly a commutable distance from here. It’s SUNY Purchase or one of the CUNYs to get the 4 year degree. The commute can be brutal and expensive.
My son went back to finish degree locally, and though he was close to 30 years old, still did not qualify for state funds without parental finances in the picture. Which left just federal money for him which was loans. He had us as fallback, so not a huge problem for him, but folks like him without that back up would be hard put
It isn’t all that easy, for all the funding out there, and free community college would have been a game changer for many to at least get some college courses. The city schools also tend to be way over subscribed and getting needed courses a challenge.
A first step might be: free community college for all state residents and free flagship for low income residents who managed to get in*, with financial or merit aid to “meet need” as defined by EFC in all other cases. Then, work from there…?
(EOP does help in NYS, but not many states have that).
This is the group most likely to benefit, for whom it is life-changing, and who couldn’t afford to go otherwise. It can be last-dollar but should cover R/B. This is especially important for people who live in rural areas, where it’s not possible to commute anywhere due to distance and/or weather.
NYC also found that paying for book rentals and the metrocard is a very cost effective way of increasing degree completion in their special CC program.
Venezuela had and still has very high levels of economic inequality. That can make for some dysfunctional politics when desperate and angry people who see themselves as having no opportunity within the system vote in desperation for demogogues who end up doing worse.
For the US, perhaps stopping and reversing the trend toward (both actual and perceived) increasing inequality (which is already very high among rich countries) and declining opportunity may be necessary to avoid eventually suffering the fate of Venezuela and other countries with similar problems. Opportunity to seek post-secondary education that is increasingly seen by employers as required for jobs and promotions is an important aspect here – which makes the affordability and accessibility of public colleges and universities important to consider.
https://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data indicates that average student loan debt in Georgia is $28,763 (57% of graduates have debt). This is not among the lowest (like Utah at $18,838 (38%) or New Mexico at $21,237 (54%)) but also not among the highest (like Connecticut at $38,510 (57%) and Pennsylvania at $36,854 (67%)).