"White people (you like what I did there, Hunt?) have never felt a need to embrace an identity beyond American, if they indeed were so, as American has so often been far more easily assigned "
The more I look at this, the more ridiculous I find it. White people have never embraced an identity beyond American. Irish, Italian, German Jew, E European Jew (and that ain’t the same), Swedish in certain parts of this country and certainly Southerners seeing themselves as part of a fallen nation that doesn’t include Northerners. Do we all look alike or something?
@LBowie: That discussion is one which has raged in the Deaf community, along with the move toward cochlear implants. It is fraught its own issues, which I deeply respect but have gotten away from. I briefly interpreted for a deaf relative when he sought employment, during my early adulthood, and it looks as if my family is going to need me to step back into that role, as my aunt is succumbing to illness in her elder years.
I believe we each decide how to cloak ourselves in the multiple identities we inhabit.
The origins of its use in the military is derived from the feudal period when “Sir” was an address only reserved for members of the nobility including the knights and was often used in the context of a “lower” commoner addressing them whenever interacting with them. It’s a term deeply infused with deep hierarchical concepts derived from that age. And as you well know, the military is a very hierarchical organization.
People from subcultures which reject or don’t desire to emphasize social hierarchies of one being superior to the other tend to dislike the use of honorifics which reinforce them.
I also forgot to mention most of the Americans in the cultural subgroups which have an issue with honorifics which in their view reinforce artificial social hierarchies or which they regard as “feudalistic throwbacks” tend to associate the military and its nature as a heavily hierarchical organization as a major negative.
In short, that would be another reason why they’d find the use of “sir” to be offensive or at least, an undesirable way to address someone as it introduces an extra social barrier they feel is unwarranted.
Somewhat related, I recalled reading somewhere that one reason why hats largely fell out of fashion among men after WWII was it reminded most of them of their lives as draftee soldiers in the military. Once the war was over and they were free to resume their civilian lives, they didn’t want to be reminded of a period of their lives when they were not only risking their lives in combat, but also had their lives heavily controlled by rigid regulations and NCOs and commissioned officers managing/commanding them.
Oh get over it. We respect the military just fine even if we don’t use the term sir for loved ones. Stop making everything about rank and hierarchy and your resentment thereof.
I am from NYC. Much of my family came here as Dutch settlers in the 1600s. I have genetically close but emotionally distant relatives in the south. I am not familiar in any meaningful sense with southern culture. I am, however, educated about American history.
Yesterday I went to a college visit with my son.
On that trip I saw an actual, physical (as in not a photograph or a cartoon) Confederate flag for the first time in my entire life.
My daughter is a graduate student. She is a medievalist, however she does a great deal of work professionally on American military history. She was equally flabbergasted. Her response was “holy __ that really is a thing.”
I hear you, zoosermom. It’s just crazy to some of us that these flags are real - outside of a history museum context. They’re just so embarrassing.
Re sir and ma’am - again, people you are keeping at arm’s length is the core. But haven’t they figured out that miss is how you refer to a woman you don’t know, not ma’am? Unless she’s ancient?
When my H, whose father was a Marine and who spent his first six years on military bases in the South, moved North, he got in trouble with teachers who thought his “yes, Ma’am” was snarky, rather than ingrained into him as proper. 50 years later, it still comes out in his conversation at times.
I see that “for me” in there. But in the previous posting, I saw that you capitalized “Black” and not “white.” I then asked you to explain. You did, and though I find your explanation kind of silly, you’re entitled to it–and it doesn’t appear that you’d object if somebody chose to capitalize “White” for similar reasons, right? You wouldn’t immediately assume that somebody who capitalized “White” was some kind of supremacist, right? I think perhaps everybody ought to ask more questions before making a lot of assumptions.
Of course not, Hunt, no objections at all. I’ve just never really known anyone so eligible to readily assign a racial designation to themselves. Generally, the normative is understood, and everyone and everything else exists in relationship to that group.
As such, Black is often a “qualified”-American, not the American imagined in the minds of many,
Fascinating cultural/geographic chasm. Where I live, “sir” and “ma’am” are polite, inclusive and respectful. Bot “arm’s length” at all. Must admit that “m’am” is heard more on Wednesdays at the supermarket… where it’s senior citizen’s day. And I often use “thank you, sir”. Its cordial and polite. Better, IMO, than “thank you, bud.”
I was born and raised in N.C. where using “sir” and “ma’am” was so commonplace as a means of respect in certain situations. Wondering if down South these days this is still the norm?
Secondly, this thread is making me realize why I have become such an introvert in the last couple of decades! LOL. I’m askeered of talking to and inevitiably offending anyone, everyone all the time “out there”. Seriously.
Color me guilty. I worked in a virtual United Nations of people. Anyone new with an obvious not-from-here accent would get asked where they were originally from. And::::::::gasp:::::::::even a blonde haired, blue eyed woman. Why? Because I was sincerely interested and intrigued and wanted to get to know them. And even more surprising, they most often smiled and happily explained. Imagine that.
I wonder how much of the sir and ma’am thing is class related, rather than racially or geographically. My husband and I are the help in different ways in our professional lives, and we absolutely call customers/clients sir or ma’am because anything else would be inappropriate, and then Mr. or Ms. when we get to know their names.
FWIW, I find the questions, “Where are you from?” and “Where are you REALLY from?” when my answer “Born in Washington State and raised in California” to be annoying and rather offensive. It reveals a desire to peg me as a perpetual outsider, and generally, the questioner wants to show off his or her knowledge of some Asian country. I would not be offended if the person wanted to show of his/her knowledge of Asian AMERICAN history, however, as I see that as more my identity.
We live in a small town. My kids both are deaf. When they were younger, they both had hearing aids; they now have cochlear implants. We’ve had many interesting questions “Is it hereditary”. But the question that took the cake was “are they adopted?”. I looked at the person asking and said to her “Why in the world would you ask me a question like that?” She responded that she couldn’t imagine one person having two biological kids who are deaf. Of course, I couldn’t either when they were first diagnosed. But really?
About a year ago, I was at Costco and couldn’t help but hear a conversation between a mother and her daughter. The daughter was about 2 years old, and just yakking away. The mother would ask her a question and the little girl would say ‘Yes’ and the mother would say “Yes ma’am” and the little girl would parrot “Yes ma’am” and continue her chatter to the next question “Yes” and the mother would insert “Yes ma’am” and the parrot would say “Yes Ma’am”. There was a heavy military presence in this area, and it in North Florida, which is very southern. My kids’ classmates either called me Mrs. __(last name) or more often Miss (first name), not by my first name only.
Kids are still trained in the Ma’am and Sir use in the south.
One of my best friends, a psychiatrist, most often uses the Ma’am or Sir, no matter whom he speaks to. Even though he is prominent in FL psychiatric community, it is just his training. No one ever takes offense.