Yes, that is how little ones are taught to say, “yes ma’am, and no sir,” in the south. I, too, have heard parents do that when they are talking to their kids, or if I ask their kids anything. You will hear the tiniest kids being reminded to say, “yes ma’am,” if they initially just say, “yes,” or if they haven’t yet answered.
this is not that much different from cultures where the language has a “familiar” address, and a formal address. It would be rude or insulting to use the “familiar” when speaking to an elder or employer.
I was recently accosted on a public bus in Asia by a Kiwi Mormon missionary of Maori roots. During the long bus ride, we chatted about all kinds of things, and he volunteered that he was a “coconut”, i.e. part-Maori and part-white. Who would have thunk it: Mormon Maori from New Zealand…
It was interesting how open and matter-of-fact he was about his racial identity, vs how touchy non-whites in America are.
A couple of weeks later by mega coincidence, I bumped into him in another part of the ciy.
When we lived on the Gulf Coast, the Cub Scouts all called their den leader “Mr. Bill” instead of “Mr. Jones” like kids in the MidWest might do , or “Bill” as kids on either coast might do. It took some getting used to. I spent many Scout parent meetings silently hearing “Oooohhh noooo, Mr Bill”.
But after 20 years in Texas, I’m totally used to hearing “yes, ma’am” when I talk to a student. I don’t require it but I like it when kids use it. It slows down the argument and encourages respect for everyone. I frequently use sir and ma’am right back at my students,
“Hey, Corey, we don’t throw food in the lunchroom,please go pick up that grape”
"Yes ma’-am, but Justin threw it at me first "
“That, sir, may be true, but you were the one I saw throwing. Please pick it up”
Excess politeness never hurts
I think the tradition has in most areas outlasted the racist connotations.
I try to take things with the idea that people are curious, that they mean well, that they aren’t necessarily articulate. It’s a little weird sometimes, like the common question in the South about which church you belong to when we’re most definitely not Christian and really don’t want to talk religion. Or with a cousin who keeps kosher, having to ask all the time if this contains pork and sometimes being told things like “oh no, we made it special” and then finding out that “without pork” might not refer to bacon or lard. Or my mom being asked when she moved South where her horns are. Ignorance is not necessarily hate. But then a fair number of times I’ve had bits of scripture read to me as, you know, just in case Jesus comes and they want to make sure I’m saved.
Politeness in the South is a perfect example of things that people point to because they choose the association of Jim Crow when it is also separately part of both white culture and black culture. Why focus on the negative association?
Some things get to me. There’s a church nearby named for John Chrysostum and I have to resist the urge to scream at them: don’t you get that this saint of yours is the guy all the book burnings and hatred of Jewish books traces from, that his sermons reek of hate … and you revere that? Or the church nearby that has a quote from the Jewish Bible that is wrong, that is a Christian translation which gets the Jewish meaning wrong. I sit there during concerts and stare at it but who am I to say that’s bleep.
People ask stupid questions and say stupid things. I’ve said many stupid things in my life, some hurtful (only a few those on purpose). It happens. That’s the way life works.
@Waiting2exhale - so if a multi-race American, who is half black and half white, and whose white half is mostly of Irish descent, decides to go full bore Irish on St. Patrick’s Day - does no one bat an eye? I know that everyone is allowed to be Irish on St. Patrick’s Day (except people actually from Ireland, who are mostly bemused at the spectacle) but your point about black Americans being only allowed to identify as black, whether they want to or not, raises an interesting question about these ethnic associations.
I am 1/4 Irish, and look about as swarthy as many Americans of Irish descent look. Still, I think that most of us would draw the line at someone who was clearly multi- racial, clearly part black or asian, and think, “nope, they’re not Irish”. And that’s not fair, is it?
I was describing some US sub-cultures where anything which is viewed as introducing artificial hierarchies or social barriers are viewed with suspicion. They range from old school hippies from the '60s to some religious groups emphasizing complete outward equality. Using the word “sir” would be viewed as introducing an artificial social barrier and hierarchy when they reject them in favor of emphasizing complete outward equality in interactions with everyone.
Describing subcultures and their practices doesn’t necessarily mean agreeing or being completely conforming to them in any way. FYI: Reading comprehension…it’s your friend.
Personally, if I was called “sir” as I have been on several occasions, I’d find it odd to be addressed as such…but wouldn’t take personal offense.
As for respecting the military, I do respect it not only because several relatives were in the service for long periods, but also I also seriously considered joining myself during my teen/undergrad years. The RIF at the end of the Cold War and a preexisting health condition I had meant they weren’t taking many folks unless I had no issues sitting several miles underground on alert for days waiting for the presidential order to be one of two commissioned key turners. Surre…no thank you…
Yes, that is how little ones are taught to say, “yes ma’am, and no sir,” in the south. I, too, have heard parents do that when they are talking to their kids, or if I ask their kids anything. You will hear the tiniest kids being reminded to say, “yes ma’am,” if they initially just say, “yes,” or if they haven’t yet answered.>>>>>
Oh, my parents didn’t make me use sir and ma’am to them. It was to other adults.
My church is very diverse and the older church ladies are predominantly elderly black ladies and always have been. I turned 50 a couple of weeks ago and would never, ever, ever call one of them by her first name. Always “Miss ___” or for the ladies my mom was very close to "Aunt " and I’ve taught my kids the same thing. It would be absolutely unthinkable to call an older church lady by the first name or to not say “Yes Ma’am” or “No Ma’am.” These are the ladies who wear hats on Sunday and white gloves on holidays. Interestingly, our pastors are young and also from the south, but go by first names, so there is an element of age/race/culture.
We live in a very diverse, not-very-high-income neighborhood and people on my block have always addressed me as “Miss (My first name).” Finally I asked one of them why that was and the person said that she was taught that that was the polite way to speak to a woman older than herself!
I find it odd if salespeople and the like say something like, “Excuse me, Miss” to me. I am clearly no spring chicken and it seems that they should be saying, “Excuse me, Ma’am.”
I was in line behind a 90-year-old woman at Target who got carded when trying to buy a bottle of wine. If a 90-year-old has to present proof that she’s over 21, it makes sense that a woman of a certain age will sometimes be addressed as “Miss.”
The “What are you?” discussion has been a part of our lives since our youngest was adopted at birth. People ask for all kinds of reasons, some rude, some not. He is a handsome young man, but many cannot tell by looking at him what his mixed racial heritage is. My response has always been honest and matter-of-fact because I knew I was modeling for him what he has and will always deal with. How could I make him proud of his heritage(s) if I was constantly upset and annoyed by the inevitable question?
When he turned 21, he had genetic testing done to see where his ancestors came from. Now when people ask, he pulls out his cell phone to show the results, what percentage of his ancestors came from what continent, what tribe, etc. He thinks it is interesting and to share all his various ancestries. He primarily identifies with one, but will share more detail if asked about it.
If anybody watches the show “Pitbulls and Parolees” I noticed that when they were in SoCal, parolee/employees called the owner by her first name Tia. Now in New Orleans they either call her “Miss Tia” or “Momma”.
Don’t know why this occurred to me but many of the interactions described in the various stories in this thread explore the difference between obliviousness and rudeness, between negligent ignorance and willful ignorance. An example to me is “Jew Harp” or “Jew’s Harp”. IMHO, you have to be quite insensitive, meaning willfully ignorant, to think that attaching “Jew” to harp would be okay. It’s a racist/ignorant/regional corruption of jaw harp. A similar example, discussed elsewhere here in the past, is Paddy Wagon for a police wagon to haul the arrested. Growing up I had no idea that Paddy referred to Irish; though I grew up in a largely Catholic area, I never heard the term (back in the 1960’s). At least in my defense of childhood me, they didn’t say “Irish Wagon” for a police wagon. It doesn’t take deep thought or even much consciousness to think, “Maybe putting ‘Jew’ in the name isn’t right” and that to me is a big part of what makes something offensive.
My kids went to a school with a lot of foreign exchange students. I think my daughter and her friend nearly sent some teachers in a tizzy. Apparently she and her friend from s korea sat criss cross applesauce across from each other and sat there pinching each other’s noses. They were probably 12 years old. They just giggled. They both just wanted to know. The teacher told me about it and I could tell she didn’t know how to respond. I just said sounds like they were curious and respectful so I don’t see any problem.
I’m almost half Irish in ancestry, and my Immigrant Irish grandmother was the only grandparent I ever knew.
It never occurred to me that the term “paddy wagon” was in any way a reference to the Irish. I thought maybe it had something to do with perhaps being padded.
Honestly, if I’m going to become irritated by something like that, it’s going to be all of the asinine garbage surrounding St. Patrick’s day, including green beer, cartoonish leprechauns, and–in NYC–the annual invasion of drunken teenagers, few of them Irish–from New Jersey.
Actually, no, what really frosts me is this myth that corned beef and cabbage is the national Irish dish. A total fabrication. And people who put baking powder in their soda bread.
<<<- so if a multi-race American, who is half black and half white, and whose white half is mostly of Irish descent, decides to go full bore Irish on St. Patrick’s Day - does no one bat an eye? I know that everyone is allowed to be Irish on St. Patrick’s Day (except people actually from Ireland, who are mostly bemused at the spectacle) but your point about black Americans being only allowed to identify as black, whether they want to or not, raises an interesting question about these ethnic associations.
I am 1/4 Irish, and look about as swarthy as many Americans of Irish descent look. Still, I think that most of us would draw the line at someone who was clearly multi- racial, clearly part black or asian, and think, “nope, they’re not Irish”. And that’s not fair, is it?
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lol…my Notre Dame grad neighbor is half Irish and half Black. He leads one of the St. Patrick’s Day parades in my state. He is very proud of both sides of his heritage. If someone said that he isn’t Irish, he’d “take them to school.”
There are a lot of ethnic slurs in our vocabulary. Some of them have relatively innocent beginning but became more virulent because of how they were used - the k word against Jews, WOP, moulinyan, etc. Others have lost all heat as the generations have gone by - all the Dutch insults - Dutch courage, Dutch treat, etc., are a remnant of the rivalry between England and Holland.
Let’s hope they all lose heat and become merely silly remnants as years go by.
I never understood most of the insults. What exactly does the k word mean that makes it such a slur? I’ve read and heard many derivations of WOP but none seem deserving of making it an awful word. I gather the concept is that x group decides this word means something bad and uses it as a slur which makes it a slur.
This is related to word ownership, something that genuinely bothers me. Not that long ago, there was discussion about the word pickaninny, which I gather was a real word from Africa referring to a child, but which African-Americans at some point objected to as a slur. (Not saying it shouldn’t be, just that it wasn’t originally.) I’m heading toward the obvious: the use by some groups of slurs and then the objecting to the use of the same word by others.
I guess it’s all about intent, and the beauty or ugliness underlying that intent. If enough people do it for a long enough time, the word becomes tainted and even taboo.
A woman I knew once complained about how one of her sons would drive the other one crazy by calling him “butter”. He just said it in a mean way, over and over again. It takes a special teflon kind of person to let all that repetitive nastiness just slide off without any upset.
And people who put baking powder in their soda bread.