To determine reach, target, and safety schools for a music major, consider audition difficulty, faculty connections, and acceptance rates rather than just GPA. Research past admission stats and consult current students.
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This is SUCH a great idea! I’m going to have him see if he can find videos of recent jazz performances so that he can see what the talent level is like so that he has a better idea of where he would stand compared to that. Because I agree my son probably would turn to me and easily compare his level to what he sees performing.
Google/YouTube will be his friend here for sure. My son did a surprising amount of “oppo” research on students his grade and above over the last couple of years and the results were illuminating. Have him work backwards from the top dozen of so Jazz camps and competitions, especially Ellington and Mingus, searching the names of the kids on his instruments. See what kind of HS and programs they’re from, then work down from there. He’ll find that the same kids keep popping up at many of the programs. It’s SO helpful to know if a student is enrolled at a HS like Interlochen or LaGuardia, or does a precollege like MSM, JLC or NYYS or Jazz House Kids.
Then have him search for videos of those kids on YouTube… hopefully someone will have listed the band personnel in the video description, and he’ll get some hits. Once he has a list of interesting kids, search again, and all kinds of things will come up (or not). HS concerts, prescreen videos, local combo performances, etc. Have him go back and forth between web searches and videos and he’ll surely get some great stuff to look at. Best not to go back more than two years though, because Covid. Then, search socials to see where the kids ended up going to school. There will be surprises there too, since he’ll be absolutely positive that the kid who consistently crushed it on the horn would end up at an elite east coast music school in fact went to a midwest public for Compsci.
Another thing I can’t stress enough is having contact with other students in his grade or a year above. Summer programs are really good for that. I highly recommend Litchfield since even though everyone gets in, it attracts kids from ALL over at very high levels of talent. NYU was good too, kids came from all over the world. He’ll just have to accost every senior and junior he meets to ask them in detail about their admissions journey. My son learned the most about different schools and their application and audition requirements that way.
Of course, this is all just about learning how he stacks up to the other kids… finding a great school that’s just right for him is another even more massive can of worms.
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thank you so much! this is sooooooo helpful!!!
@TooManyViolinists wrote a great response.
I think with music you have to be careful with concepts like reach, level and safety, because music isn’t like academic study. someone on here a long time ago wrote a comment that raised a lot of backs, she said that if the student is not at the level to get into the top tier or next tier school in an audition, you have to ask yourself what going to a lower tier or safety school , what is the plan? If you are a classical musician, do you plan on trying to get into an orchestra? If a string player, do you see yourself doing chamber music or being (god forbid) a soloist? Or do you see yourself getting a degree, trying to get into a more competitive school in grad school?
Again keep in mind I am talking classical music and I also am talking about my experience with the violin world, which being a solo instrument like the cello, piano, etc, is ridiculously competitive. If you are a violinist and by talent level don’t have a shot at the top tier, and your dream is to be a soloist, chamber musician, orchestra musician at a high level, it may not be realistic (it is why talking to people in the know is so important. You won’t see me talking about Jazz , because I know 0 about that.
So how do you know this? Hopefully the teacher is knowledgeable, but that isn’t always true sadly. My son studied with a person who is a principal chair in a well known regional, full time orchestra, and honestly they were surprisingly ignorant of the music world, with schools and such. They were a bit older than I am, and in today’s world their path wouldn’t happen on violin and I don’t think they knew. His teacher he started with in middle school knew the ropes,and people he met through her and through music programs he was in did as well, plus he saw the talent level (and yes, looking at You Tube videos of kids at some competions, or recitals at schools, can tell you a lot, for the good or the bad). Summer programs are valuable if you do them because you can get feedback from teachers and also can see how good (or not) other students are, at the auditioned programs. If you know of respected teachers in the area, you might be able to get them to give the kid an assessment of their skills and what they might be missing versus let’s say a typical student at their program. Teachers don’t have any reason to lie on an assessment.
Does that mean if you can’t get into a top tier school, you are doomed?No, because the audition process there is fraught. When you are talking Curtis or Colburn, Reputation (especially Curtis) is a draw, esp Curtis, but so is the fact it is free tuition (IDK what they do with housing now), and Colburn is free totally, that is huge. Juilliard has a name as well (though def not free!), and they draw mountains of applications from all over the world and getting in there even for the most talented students can be a crap shoot (there are a lot of factors there that starts with passing the audition). So kids don’t get in there and get into really good programs, because in truth talent wise they may be as good or even better at kids at those ‘top’ programs, because the adminission is subjective.
If the talent isn’t there (and please folks, I am using a very extreme example with violin), if your playing isn’t at the level of the very competitive schools, a safety might not make any sense. TMV said someone in a suzuki book applying to Juilliard, which is apt, but what if a kid in a suzuki book can get into an unauditioned program, how far can they take it? We all hear miracle stories, the person who picked up the violin in high school and ended up at a great music school and into a high level orchestra, but these days those are myth.
I think it all comes down to what we are talking about, how do you assess yourself? My son was into music early, we ended up with a teacher who knew the score, he was in music programs with kids that often far outstripped him, so he kind of knew the reality, what kind of playing was out there. But not everyone has it (we kind of got lucky, my wife and I knew jack about the serious music world, literally). Again it comes down to a realistic evaluation of the kids level relative to the instrument. Voice is very different that violin, they develop later, it has its own criteria. Yes, you can get into a ‘lower tier’ school and still do well, but if you are way behind, you may never be able to catch up (and that of course is all relative…). On the other hand, a talented kid, who theoretically might even be close to the level of the reach schools, but doesn’t make it because they missed it by that much (showing my age, Get Smart), could go to a program that may be less competitive but if there is a good teacher there and they are self aware, can do well. The reality of auditions is that a kid could apply to let’s say 2 uber up there schools (curtis, etc), 2 next tier schools, then a couple of less competitive schools and get only into the less competitive schools, because they play flute and at the uber schools, the next tier schools, they only are taking one flutist (at Juilliard one year, for example, they had 1 slot for flute…and that was for grad and undergrad).
It is why I am kind of dubious about non auditioned programs, there is a reason they aren’t. It can sell a false dream that frankly is impossible, depending on what the kid wants to do. A kid can go to a non competive school for academics, and go to a really good grad program because they did really well,because to be honest the course work at a state school versus a competitive private school is the same, how you do is objective. But if you go to a non auditioned school in music, if you want to go to an auditioned grad school, it will be very very difficult, close to impossible, on many instruments, to catch up to where you can audition into a great program.
Getting back to the OP, it sounds like your kid already has an idea of where he is, which is good. If still concerned, maybe talk to a teacher at one of the well regarded jazz programs (okay, not the guy in the movie Whiplash…my son’s high school violin teacher saw that movie and said that guy was too soft lol) and see if they would be willing to do a paid assessment and give you an idea where your kid’s talents lie, could even be over zoom or whatnot. Once you know that, you can kind of decide how to proceed.
Someone asked how do you tell what the tiers are? That in some ways is relative, too. Admission stats are part of that, but understand that there are some really great music schools that have relatively high rates of admission and some schools whose low admission rate is kind of smoke and mirrors. A school like Juiilliard, where i swear it is the only music school the parents know, gets a ton of applications, and a lot of them are pure fantasy (they get wiped out easily in the pre screen process), so Juilliard might get hundreds or thousands of applications on violin, and like maybe 25 get admitted. (their official acceptance rate is like 6% I think).
Still, admission rate is one way to see. Another is of course to look at the faculty, what their reputation is (often it is because they have ‘great performers’ as faculty, known people). It also of course is tracking down what students have done, what they end up doing. Generally the more ‘famous’ the faculty is, the more people apply there, making it more competitive IME. You also should look at audition requirements as well, at least in the violin world you can tell the difference with playing level on the audition.
Once you have done that, it comes down to teachers at any school. You might find a teacher who has a sterling reputation , who teaches at the Juilliards et al, who also teaches at a program not quite that tier. If you are good enough, then even if choosing a school you feel is such that they likely are going to take you, faculty is key. I would tell you with a non audition school is that unless they had a teacher that was highlighted as great, as having taught successful musicians, I would be loath to recommend applying there.
I guess what I am trying to say is that the safety school should be a school that may be less competitive or you might have a good chance of getting into because a teacher has told you you could get into but not a school that would otherwise accept anyone. A safety should be a school where your kills are close to or at the top tier programs/upper mid tier but you know that if those auditons/admissions fail, it is still good enough to move you forward. Which of course comes down to, as I have in my own awkward way, saying knowing what your own level is:)
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I can think of five kids I know, in high school graduate classes of 2022-2024. My son’s best friend (A), my son (B), a former student in my class (C), my son’s other friend (D), a student in my school but not my class (E), all string musicians.
A knew he was going to be a musician since the age of 6. He has won many national competitions since 8th grade. He didn’t audition for all-state orchestra because he was way better (comments from the all-state student musicians). When he applied to conservatories, everywhere was safety. He applied to 6 schools (including Juilliard, Curtis, Colburn), all accepted with generous scholarships. That’s a level very few students can get to.
B started looking at music major after 9th grade, mainly because he made the highest level all-state orchestra first try. He remained in that group all 4 years of high school. We’re in Texas. Every year the all-state rehearsal and performance is during a music teacher conference of 4 days. It’s also a conference for the students. They talk to each other and observe each other. There are “legends” of previous members, such as the one who was first chair for three years and is now in xxx conservatory, the one who won yyy competition last year is now in zzz school of music, so on and so forth. “Game knows game”, indeed. B was also accepted to multiple summer programs with full-ride scholarships, including NYO. There he met more student musicians and gathered information about music schools as well as professors. He also attended several summer programs taught by college professors, where he had lessons with them and established contacts with their students in college. By the time of college application, B knew his safety was UT, matches were Peabody, Shepherd, Bienen, and U Michigan.
C was in my class. He was in all-state orchestra for 3 years, once in the highest group. He was also in NYO one year, received half-tuition scholarship to at least one summer program (I think it’s Bowdoin). He has always planned to do dual degree. He loves music too much to give it up, but knows that he is not as gifted as A so a career of successful soloist is not likely. In his application season, his safety was Baylor, matches were UT, Rice Shepherd, and U Michigan. Shepherd rejected him after he insisted that he wanted to do dual degree. The studio professor flat out told him that if he would commit to Shepherd only he would be in.
D was in all-state orchestra for two years, once in the highest group. He was also in NYO one year (summer after high school). He received full-ride scholarship at a summer program (I don’t remember if it’s Interlochen) but it overlapped with NYO so he didn’t go. His family had a low budget for his college fund, so he never considered going out of Texas. His safety was SMU, matches were UT and Baylor.
E was in my school and knew my son so we chatted quite often in the hallway. He was in all-state orchestra in his senior year, not the highest level group but the very first from our school. He has received scholarship to attend local summer musical programs (tuition waiver) and volunteered a lot with local youth orchestra. His goal was to become a high school music director and in his spare time play some chamber music gigs with friends. His safety was a college I never heard of and don’t remember. He was accepted to UT Butler which he thought was a reach.
To sum it up, my observation is that in Texas the student musicians who made the top level all-state orchestra can put UT Butler as match. Among these kids, if they also were awarded full-ride scholarships to well-recognized summer programs (recruit nationally), they can put UT as safety and match up higher. Among these kids, if they have also won national titles (such as youngarts) or competitions (those giving out real money prizes), they can aim at top 20/30 music schools by reputable ranking authorities.
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There is another thing to keep in mind with all this, it also depends on the instrument or voice as well. If you are this great flute player, done all these things, and might think X is a safety school (let’s say a state school), they may not have an open slot and therefore you won’t get in. What applies for things like merit aid for one instrument might not apply to others. If you have an in with a particular teacher, it could mean more merit money depending on the school.
And obviously the level of program may not be uniform. There are schools with great strings faculty, that get really high level students, that aren’t so great with brass, so if you are a string player you might have a hard time there, but if a brass player, it is easier.
All I can say is going into all this my wife and I knew nothing, and a lot of what my son figured out came from talking to people,he had exposure through music programs like New York Youth Symphony, summer programs, then at Juilliard pre college , he got to hear about schools, musicians opinions of them, got to talk to teachers, so he had an image, but even then it can be difficult. Like anything in this world there are a lot of opinions out there about programs and teachers, and it is just that. Unless a kid really knows a teacher (like worked with them at a summer program) it is still a pig in a poke, what other people say don’t matter if the kid can’t work with them. My son studied with a teacher in grad school that his old high school teacher told him was a mistake, but a friend of his, a really accomplished fellow student, told him it would be great for him…and it was. Guy has the reputation of being as cuddly as a porcupine, but he was great with my son, he liked my son, and has been a mentor to him and his group.
So basically, there is no science to all this, you kind of have to feel your way.
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This is huge with winds, especially, I think. My son didn’t apply much of anywhere that had more than one prof on his instrument (one semi-exception) so the odds they’d take more than around 4-5 new students in any particular year were low. Which, of course, is one of the big reasons it’s so hard to determine safety/target/reach…you might in fact be a terrific match for a studio with the misfortune of applying in a year when they didn’t have much need or you were pretty much tied with someone else and things didn’t go your way in whatever figurative coin toss happened. Asking exactly this question: “how many X-instrument will you admit this year?” during sample lessons yielded good information a lot of times, too–not just the literal answer to the question but how they answer it (especially if your kid is hesitant to be more direct in asking about their chances). The school my kid ultimately attended only took two on his instrument his year.
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