How to determine Safety/Target/Reach for a Music Major?

College Majors Music Majors
1

My son is a junior in high school, we’ve been working on our college list for a few years now, adding and removing as we learns more of what exactly he wants. He specifically wants to go into Jazz, not sure if it’s more Performance or Studies.

Obviously a school like Juilliard would be a total Reach school but just not sure how to figure this out. I recommended that he talk to his jazz, guitar, and trumpet instructors to see what they all said but he thinks they may just tell them what he wants to hear since they like him.

Our list varies from Juilliard, MSM, Purchase, Eastman, Berklee, FSU, UM Frost, FIU, USC Thornton, NYU, Peabody, Hartford, Rutgers, Loyola New Orleans, Northwestern just to name some of the 20+ on his list currently. I’d love to narrow this list down bit more before the end of this school year. I want to make sure we are keeping a good number of Safety and Target schools on our list though.

So for those that have done this already or are doing this now, how did you determine what is a safety vs target vs reach for a music major? It’s clearly not the same as a non-music major who can really rely on stats like GPA and test scores.

Thanks!!

2

Where audition is a significant criterion for admission, there is no good way to assess safety/likely/target/reach. Treat all as reach.

But not all college music major programs require auditions.

1 Like
3

  1. Teachers are a big resource. They may know how tough a program is to get into, and how your student compares to those who are accepted.

  2. Pay close attention to your student’s musician peers who are seniors this year, where they apply, and where they get in. That gave us a big indicator of who was accepting who.

  3. Some schools on your list do consider GPA, like Northwestern, umich and USC. The threshold is lower than for general admissions, but it could affect whether or not the school is a reach for your student.

2 Likes
4

Welcome to the somewhat uncertain path that our music kids are following.

I have a few thoughts on this question based on how my son (and his cohorts) put together their program lists a few years ago. By way of background, my son is a classical instrumentalist (not jazz).Hopefully some jazz parents will chime in. And he attended a performing arts HS with an experienced private teacher which was an advantage. But hopefully some of the ideas below will help to define a list:

Private teacher input is really important. If his teacher(s) have prior students who have been accepted at specific programs, they should have a feel for how your son’s level compares.

Summer festivals, master classes can provide valuable data as well. By the time my son applied, he had worked with several professors at programs where he ultimately applied.

Students in the class or two ahead of your son can also be used as a guide. Where did they audition and what were their acceptances?

Your son can get some idea of program level by pulling up videos of current students performing there.

If your son has participated in any competitions, where have others with similar awards been accepted in prior years.

My son ultimately had 6 schools (all audition based) on his list. He categorized them as 2 reach, 2-3 target and 1 safety. Our path was further complicated by needing merit money. A school is not a safety if you can get in but cannot afford it.

It is challenging because it is hard to really know how competitive your kid is until auditions are completed. But this process worked well for mine. He was accepted everywhere (except oddly one target school) and is happily at the conservatory of his dreams.

Hope this helps and good luck!

2 Likes
5

Unfortunately he’s in a small private school and this year there really is only one other student that is planning to go to college for music so he’s probably the ONLY person we can watch this year. Maybe this is the one bad thing about being at a small private school is that the teachers don’t usually see many kids wanting to go into something as specific as jazz.

1 Like
6

Can he attend a festival/camp next summer? The faculty can generally provide valuable input.

2 Likes
7

I 100% agree that you just don’t know how competitive your kid is until auditions are completed. All of the schools on his list are audition based schools. He’s done some summer camps and definitely has done lessons with different professors while at those camps. I have him working on doing lessons with different professors at some of the schools on his list because ultimately he also has to be ok with learning from that person for 4 years. I’m going to see if he can push his instructors to give their honest opinions on where they can see him having a good shot. I just feel like since he’s at a small private school (even though he’s in an Arts Academy) they don’t see many students coming through wanting to focus on jazz to be able to properly recommend colleges.

8

He’s done camps at UM (Frost), FSU, and UNT. A lot of these other schools don’t have camps so it’s so hard to narrow down his list.

9

Often music professors go to festivals in the summer that are not held at their home school so you might want to research where some of the professors at schools your son is interested go in the summer.

10

Is he willing to go anywhere? Are you willing to pay full private tuition, which is now about 90K/yr?

If not, then you can start narrowing your list just by geography and cost.

Usually, by the time that someone is doing a performance music major, they are intensely focused on one instrument, or doubling on closely related instruments. For example, trumpet and flugelhorn. Sax and clarinet. Flute and piccolo. They wind up focused like this because to get good, they need to practice many hours a day, 7 days a week, nearly 365 days a year. It’s too hard to do 2 hours/day trumpet plus 2 hours/day guitar and everything they need to do for school, although some manage it somehow.

Start with a conversation with his private instructors for guitar and trumpet. If he doesn’t yet have private instructors for these, a year with them, starting immediately and intensively, may still greatly improve his auditions next year.

If he doesn’t have a very high level jazz ensemble at his school (which a small private school just will not have), it may not yet be too late to get into a local regional ensemble, if they have one. Playing in a high level jazz band is an invaluable experience in jazz players’ development.

Is there a local conservatory with a high school program? Is there a local conservatory where a jazz instructor would be willing to start a high school jazz program, now, for this year?

My kid was jazz and classical, but was applying for classical. Kid made a spreadsheet of all the schools that had a teacher for their instrument, with whom they would like to study. They eliminated some based upon teacher was not a good match - personality, playing style, spread too thin. They found out about all this through people they’d met at festivals/camps who were ahead of them in school, also from internet research, and listening to their recordings, because you wind up sounding like your teacher. My kid already had done very well in national competitions, and so knew that they had a chance anywhere. Then they eliminated schools based upon not having the academics available for them that they wanted, and locations they didn’t want to be in. Baylor, for example, was off the table.

Once they’d factored in teacher, location, academics, they wound up with fewer than 10 schools. They needed a great audition AND great academics for the places they wanted.

I think that your focus right now for your junior should be on jazz music preparation, rather than schools. Start thinking about schools next August. Right now, focus on private teachers, a great jazz band, if possible, and his improving his skills, whether it’s performance or composition.

When it’s time, know that some schools accept students with great auditions and somewhat lesser academic stats, while some won’t. For example, U Michigan accepts jazz students with great auditions and okay stats, who wouldn’t have gotten in if they hadn’t been going into jazz. And some schools which are not academic powerhouses are very famous for their jazz programs - U North Texas is an example of this. But for now, focus on his improving his jazz performance and composition.

11

My daughter attended one of the music college fairs where she was able to talk to many teachers and admission officers. It really helped her to understand what they were looking for in an audition and what level they were expecting. Also, she participated in a competition where she was able to see where she stood in comparison to other students.

But as everyone says, it was still not clear which schools were safety or targets. We included a couple of less competitive programs at state schools hoping they were safe.

2 Likes
12

I think you and your son are making good progress on determining a list of programs.

Your son will have to get a feel for this based on how these lessons go and how comfortable he feels with a professor (whether at a lesson, festival or camp) but it is not uncommon to get feedback from these mentors as to where they recommend he apply. Some teachers will openly say, “I hope you apply at XYZ school because we would love to have you.” If so, you might consider that a target/safety. Warning: no guarantee!

With other professors, if your son has developed a comfortable relationship, it is not improper to let them know he is looking towards his applications and would they have ideas as to what schools might be a good fit. This is especially true at camps not based at a single university but with faculty from various programs.

I believe @Shellg has a jazz kid who just went through applications last year. Maybe she can add some non classical wisdom.

13

I’m not really worried about improving his jazz performance and composition. He’s a hard worker and plans on auditioning for some of the high level ensembles this upcoming year that are outside of school. I think waiting until August of next year to fine tune his list is just too late. Every school has totally different audition requirements and he really needs to use next summer to work on prescreen material.

14

He has had some professors at some of the camps he’s gone to probe him about going to their school. I think they were sorta disappointed he wasn’t getting ready to graduate just yet lol I’m definitely going to let him know that he can certainly ask some of these professors he’s scheduling lessons with about where they think he’d be a good fit based on his skills.

2 Likes
15

TLDR: The best possible way to determine admissions chances for a Jazz Performance student is to go to see as many big band and especially combo performances at that school as you can and compare your student to those on the stage. You will be shocked at the WIDE range of talents you hear.

My son is a Senior in HS this year, and we’ve been on this journey since Freshman year. I can tell you that has been a real learning experience, and there is no better way to get a feel for the students talent than by seeing them play. Your son will know exactly where he stands at NYU or MSM if he attends three nights of Jazz combo recitals there. As soon as a guitar or trumpet solo winds down he’ll turn to you and say “light work”, or “I’m cooked”. That’s what’s been happening as my son and I visit these schools. He’s seen the kids play (and played with the kids) at Juilliard, Peabody, Hartt, Berklee, Purchase, NYU, MSM, McGill, Temple, New School and UArts, and we’ll be heading to Oberlin in a few weeks.

Without exception, he’s been in the upper middle of the pack at each of these schools talent wise. Jazz differs from classical in that while skill on your instrument is important, equally important, many would say, is the ability to play with others. That comes with experience. The Jazz programs at these schools walk a fine line between admitting kids with experience and just talent. It is school after all, so they have to look at the kid from a farm town in Iowa who submits a killer trumpet prescreen but only knows 12 Jazz songs and has never seen a live Jazz performance.

My son has spent a huge amount of time on the NYC Jazz scene playing in HS programs, talking to other students and pro musicians, visiting schools and seeing as much Jazz at clubs and recitals as possible, and it’s paid off for him. He pretty much knows which schools he can get into, now he just needs to know which ones he wants to go to and how much $$ (if any) each of them will give.

Start visiting schools this year. We started during his Junior year and it made all the difference.

5 Likes
16

Tagging @BeverlyWest whose son is at Loyola NOLA studying jazz.

17

The small private school can be tough! But it sounds like you have some feedback and resources from the programs he’s done. And joining ensembles should help … That’s where most of my student’s music peers came from even though she went to a large public school.

It’s so hard when you start because the academic stats are so clear and public for all the schools and the music stats are much harder to find. Seems like you are on the right path!

1 Like
18

A lot of excellent information has been given. It can be overwhelming. But you do need to get your kid in front of some experienced teachers to get a few recommendations. And then you need to do the hardest part (along with your kid): BELIEVE THEM. Others have had to do this…so you may want to have a talk with your kid about it! There are no guarantees but experienced teachers will know if you are shooting for the right level. The interactions (detailed in other emails) should help build a list.

I do want to call out the comment by @stiege . This is excellent advice. As my D (a working musician) even says today…game knows game. Most teen musicians have a sense of where they belong and what may be a stretch by watching performances online or live. It’s hard to “trust” your kid with the idea of safety, target, reach…but you, as a parent, can do some of the academic checks (remember many schools allow music kids scores to be slightly lower than the regular student body)…BUT you’ll need to put your kid to work on the “musical fit” portion of it (along with a teacher). This is not only important to assure good fit…it’s something young musicians must learn….to trust themselves and their music. Best to start sooner than later.

Finally, it’s not uncommon to have 20ish schools now. By end of the schools year, you may have your top 12. Then as you start applying, it may go down to 8 or so…as time cuts a few schools off his list (which is OK…just part of the process…there’s probs a reason they didn’t get done). You need to trust that you’ll get there.

1 Like
19

Here is what we did.

First, we made a list of the top about 25 music programs out there. Then we did research to figure out where each one would rank specific to his instrument. Since he was a violinist, we ranked them based on a number of factors including reputation of teachers, difficulty to get into the school, and level of players. We watched YouTube recitals of students, looked at who from his precollege program got in where, looked at student outcomes (who is winning jobs and where did soloists go), etc. We of course also got the opinions of lots of others - teachers, students, parents - along the way.

Then we divided those 25 schools up into tiers. We had about 5 tiers (some were subtiers). Schools in tier 1a were the “reach” schools for absolutely everybody. For violin, this was Colburn and Curtis – admission not guaranteed even for the superstars. Tier 1b was highly competitive but not ridiculous. Tier 2 was competitive (we divided this one into two subtiers as well). Tier 3 was less competitive.

Then we went about figuring out where my son fell in all these tiers. We followed things like where kids he was similar in level to in his precollege program got accepted. Same thing with kids in his summer program and kids in national and international competitions he competed against. We also watched those same YouTube recitals and compared his level. Then we aligned that with our tiers. For him, Tier 1a was reach, Tier 1b was match, and Tier 2a was safety. This will, of course, vary with each individual.

It sounds more methodical than it actually was – a lot of the levels were picked up as he went along in high school. By senior year he had a pretty clear picture of both which schools were the right level for him, and what his level was comparatively.

There are probably people who would say this amount of research is nuts, but it will save you a lot of extra applications (and potential heartbreak) if you figure this all out beforehand. You don’t want to be that student still in the Suzuki books trying to apply to Juilliard.

4 Likes
20

@stiege and @bridgenail I couldn’t agree with both of you more! Spot on. We started with 20 schools then got down to 10-12 and finally submitted 6 applications. And what a GREAT way to put it “game knows game.” My son had a really good feel for where he would stand within programs by the end of this process and it helped his decision. He wound up at a place where everyone is in the “pool”" for band chairs (undergrad, grad, doctorate) and he is very happy. He loves the competition and has held his own. That may not be for everyone.

3 Likes