How to discipline a bunch of kids

Parent Cafe
1

<p>I’m an intern at a youth program, and I’m looking for ideas on how to get kids to stop fighting. The trick is I don’t want to be seen as some strict disciplinarian but rather as an approachable older brother. Just today, a bunch of third grade girls were accusing each other of being sluts (“omg, for your birthday, i totally like want to give you a stripping pole, and it’s purple and it’s pretty”). I found myself in the middle of a physical fight… these girls were kicking each other and pulling each other’s hair. The fight must have been caused by some deep-seated tension between the two groups, because it erupted seemingly out of nowhere. It might’ve been over a boy, because they occasionally referred to “Elijah” and how he was supposed to be someone’s boyfriend or something like that. It turns out that Elijah (whom I met today for the first time… it’s only my second day here) is similarly frustrated. He says that he considers all the girls his friends, but he no longer bothers talking to any of them because he might be seen as siding with one group. “The girls are the worst creatures on earth, if they are even creatures at all.” </p>

<p>The brothers of the girls in question also got into a fight. They actually got along fine at first (even while the girls were fighting) until one of them channeled his frustration over being left out of a band towards the whole issue among the girls. He called the other’s sister a whore. So the other boy called the other’s sister a slut. One poured water on the other’s textbook and ripped apart some pages. The other poured water on the other kid’s homework. In the process, several kids were crying. Also during this incident, one girl threatened to call 911, but the other girl was fearless knowing that one had to be 10 to get arrested for anything. One called her mother saying one of the kids “taught her bad words”-- This was clearly a lie. I was put on the phone and didn’t know what to say. Luckily, I wasn’t accused of being irresponsible, because I did make an effort to stop them. Some of the kids also excused their behavior by saying that their parents told them to hit back in self-defense. Don’t know what to say to that. The pressure was on me to discipline the kids, because I was put in charge of them while the other group of kids were outside with the director of the program.</p>

<p>When I told the director that I didn’t know how to get the kids to stop fighting, he said he didn’t know either. But today, he used some of the techniques we learned from this non-violent communication seminar we attended yesterday. Quite frankly, I don’t think I can apply the same techniques without laughing. Basically, we were encouraged to talk about our feelings and to encourage the kids to talk about theirs. This technique is based on the premise that the kids will cooperate if they know what you’re seeking, which is a peace of mind. So, the director said something like “It really kills me when you guys fight like this. I’m really hurt.” I was kinda laughing in the background. Actually, I was laughing (though restrained) during the fight as well until it got physical. </p>

<p>My question is: how do I, fulfilling the role of an older brother, discipline these kids and come across as sincere?</p>

2

<p>you cannot be the older brother, to them you are the adult and you need to step up</p>

<p>first, you have to say</p>

<p>NO PHYSICAL CONTACT…that is a MAJOR deal, someone gets a bloody nose, a broken arm</p>

<p>The words have got to stop- the name calling, the putting down girls by other girls</p>

<p>I can tell you that 3rd grade can be a real snotty time, and girls can be soooo mean</p>

<p>What kind of program is this, and what are the “perks” the kids get
Is there enough for them to do
Are the parents involved at all
Is it after school (they can be really tired and hungry and all that tension has been buildig all day so you are getting the brunt)
Is it involved with the school
Is it a rec and park kind of program</p>

<p>What grade are you in?</p>

<p>I ask because I am suprised, if you are a minor, that you would be left alone for any length of time</p>

<p>How to deal:</p>

<p>First, the Director needs to have posted rules-
no hitting
no swearing
no name calling</p>

<p>as well as the positive alternatives
we treat each other with respect
when we get mad, we use our words
when we get mad, we walk away</p>

<p>It seems the director or whoever is really bad at their job and has no clue, so if this progam is going to last, some real work needs to be done to control those kids- and part of that is giving them the tools to use to get through disagreements without hurting each other or you, as well as consequences for bad behavior</p>

<p>Your FIRST priority, unfortuneatley, is going to be safety- verbal, and physical, and that is what a big brother can do</p>

<p>This is going to be a rough question, but is there a racial component to the bickering (like who is in what clique) becuase if so, that adds a whole new dimension</p>

<p>Another idea is to sit the kids down and ask them what they like to do, have some brainstorming sessions to engage them- art, songs, dance, games…</p>

<p>You can PM me if you don’t want to share publically too much information</p>

<p>Me, I was a girl scout leader for 10 years, I volunteered at my Ds schools forever, and I may have some insight, but dealing with the kids can’t be done in a bubble, the circumstances are important</p>

<p>Good for you for wanting to try and figure this out</p>

<p>I have some ideas for you, but I need a few more details to see what kind of power you have (for consequences and fun stuff) to see how we can help you</p>

3

<p>one more thing, do not smirk, the kids can see you don’t back up the director and you two HAVE to be a team, if they think you don’t take him seriouslly, they won’t either and kids can spot a phoney in a blink of an eye</p>

<p>so, do the techniques for now, it is something that can be tweaked</p>

<p>and if you are laughing during the altercations, the kids think what they are doing is okay</p>

<p>you don’t have to be mean, but stern is okay, right now that place sounds like it is not in control and that needs to be dealt with before any buddy buddy stuff will work, cause if you are buddy buddy now, they won’t listen</p>

<p>see, even big brothers have a bit of “influence” over younger siblings, what yu want is the good kind of respect that a good big brother has, so being a bit of a rule maker is okay</p>

4

<p>My suggestion would be cooperative games. Games where they have to work together to win the prize. Intermix the enemies together in small groups. Have kids sitting together in teams so you can control them.Have them go group by group. Keep them busy. Lots of preparation work for you but worth it in the end. Work together or lose the prize. </p>

<p>Start with the 3 rules cgm suggested. Team loses if they break the rules. As other teams compete and win they will begin to work together.</p>

<p>Prep…prep…prep</p>

5

<p>There is a trap that many parents fall into - wanting to be their kids’ friend instead of parent. And thinking that discipline and structure and rules mean their kids won’t be their “friend.”</p>

<p>In wanting to be seen as the older brother, instead of a strict disciplinarian, you are in danger of falling into that trap. But you don’t have to.</p>

<p>The key is to be firm and establish discipline without being arbitrary. Combine your establishment and enforcement of the rules with a healthy dose of respect.</p>

<p>CGM’s rules are the right rules. And her approach is the right approach.<br>
“Arbitrary” approach: Cut that out! You’re in trouble now. You’re really gonna get it.<br>
“Firm, disciplined and respectful” approach: On my playground, we treat each other with respect. We do NOT (insert CGM’s rules here).</p>

<p>State the rules, enforce them. And you can be both “older brother” and adult who is in charge.</p>

6

<p>I know times have changed, but geez! 8-9 year old girls? What happened to childhood?</p>

<p>Maybe it’s just me, but if 3rd grade girls are talking about “stripping poles” and calling each other sluts, I don’t think fighting is the real problem here. These kids need a lot more than an older brother.</p>

7

<p>*but geez! 8-9 year old girls? What happened to childhood?</p>

<p>Maybe it’s just me, but if 3rd grade girls are talking about “stripping poles” and calling each other sluts, I don’t think fighting is the real problem here. These kids need a lot more than an older brother.*</p>

<p>My mouth is hanging open!</p>

<p>There needs to be a contract for behavior to participate in the program that both the parents and the children sign
Clearly posted rules, with stated( and posted) repercussions for failure to follow the rules
Clear privleges to be earned if they do follow the rules</p>

<p>Find the instigator(s) seperate them, and engage their cooperation in getting the group to behave.</p>

<p>and I agree that you need to accept your responsibility and not treat this as a game
this may be the only place where they are taught appropriate ways of behaving</p>

8

<p>My role is an older brother. That won’t change. I was hired specifically to be a youth role model (I’m 18), not as a teacher disciplinarian. The kids are afraid of “strikes,” which is the system that the director uses. 2 strikes and the kid is out of the program. The kids love it there, so they are intimidated when threatened with a strike.</p>

<p>“No name calling, no swearing, no hitting.” Those are clear ground rules. We all know that. What I’m asking for is how to enforce those rules while wearing this hat.</p>

<p>Remember that I’m new to this, and you parents have dealt with this situation before (or perhaps your kids were never this unruly), so I don’t appreciate the tone of some of the posts.</p>

9

<p>Well, now I’m not sure of your role. You asked how to discipline and so I think that’s where our suggestions are coming from. Did you find any of the suggestions helpful?</p>

<p>If you really are not in the discipline role at all, then I think one of the best parenting techniques (I know you’re not a parent, but I think the same techniques apply) for eliminating undesirable behaviors is distraction. </p>

<p>You’ll have to adjust what I’m saying to your own personality and the situation, but it would work like this: When they’re fighting, go up to the girls and get the attention of (at least) one of them and say “I need you over here to be the referee/center/point guard in the 3-on-3 basketball game we’re starting.” </p>

<p>Something like that. Of course, the basketball idea may not be relevant at all. So you need something interesting that has a chance of re-directing the kids’ attention. Some kind of game/snack/singing/dancing/whatever works.</p>

10

<p>another thing that is very helpful is to NOT pick sides during the altercation…your job at that moment is to get them to stop hitting…so, what you do is say…no body talk…everybody sit down NOW…</p>

<p>when my Ds would fight when they were little, the older one would tease and the little one would hit- both bad, so if I picked a side, I really didn’t know what set off the bite or the kick- this didn’t happen often, but I learned if I, at the moment, tried to figure out what started it, it was worse</p>

<p>so, as a parent and doing yard duty with all ages, I generally found if I just said I don’t care how you started hitting each other, I need it to stop NOW…everybody sit down, and ina few minutes I will come and talk about what set you all off…and if they interupted, I would say, no talking right now, everyone will get their turn to explain what happened, but for now everoyne needs to calm, down…and make sure the “culprits” are seperated so they can’t talk</p>

<p>once you get them calmed down, you can talk about the rules, what is good and bad behavior and that now, 4 minutes will be taken away from free play to think about what happened</p>

<p>as for the tone, well that program has kids who seem pretty darn nasty and dangerous to each other and that is the foremost thing you need to deal with if you want to be a big brother or not</p>

<p>the kids obviouslly have no respect for the program because they still act out, and they know you are a newbie who they are testing</p>

<p>so, if you want to have any influence at all, you will not get huffy with those have that been there and done that</p>

<p>if you are laughing at the director behind his back and the kids see that, how in the world do you think you can get any kind of control</p>

<p>if you don’t like the tone, that may be part of the problem</p>

<p>It is WONDEFUL what you are doing, but you need to think beyond the buddy stuff, and be a role model which means if the kdis are out of control you have to step up, be firm and say stop it</p>

<p>You can see, we are a team, and we like being here, but if you want to stay, you really need to not repeat what happened the other day</p>

<p>We can have a lot of fun, but no more insults, name calling, hitting, because as cool as I am, I don’t like that. Would your mama’s and daddies like that? Would you be allowed to act like that at home? I didn’t think so, so why do you do it here?</p>

<p>As I said, 3rd graders can be very cruel…when I was doing yard duty, the boys had the strangest games, and I would change THEIR rules all the time, as their “rules” were bascially so one team could bully the others on the playing field…I would say, well, you can either pllay with my rules or not at all, your choice</p>

<p>This is a learning experience, but if you truely are going to be a role model, you need to not JUST want to be a buddy…these kids will play you, I have seen it myself</p>

11

<p>Some type of reward system to reinforce appropriate behavior, responses to situations, etc. is something that has worked for me. I have used attaboys and attagirls ( small tickets that say Attagirl with the student’s name and the behavior that earned it written in). These rewards are given at my discretion when someone does something to impress me…I have given them when someone does not respond to inflammatory taunts as well as when someone bends down to help another student who has dropped their books.</p>

<p>Sometimes the reward comes when a certain number of attaboys or girls have been accumulated and can be cashed in for certain prizes. Sometimes I collect items for an auction; the more tickets the better chance of winning something good. Be creative.</p>

<p>I hope this will help…the main thing is that you show the kids that you notice when they are behaving in a manner that impresses you and make them feel good about that. Being a good role model means that you not only have to model the behavior you want them to display, but show them it is valuable to you when they do it.</p>

<p>Also, become aware of situations that may escalate into arguing and fighting and do what you can to separate the instigators before it gets too heated. Good Luck with this…its great that you are willing to spend your time with the kids and that you want to do a good job with them.</p>

12

<p>that is so true, I should have also talked more about, wow< You ladies are playing so well together, I appreciate that, and hey guys, nice teamwork</p>

<p>your big mistake, and yes you may not like the tone, was laughing underyour breath during the fight…the kids had an audience who thought, hey this is fun!!</p>

<p>that was not your intention, but kids don’t get that…they see an adult smirking and they wil continue</p>

<p>If they see they have disappointed you, and they repsect you, things will stop much quicler</p>

13

<p>OP:</p>

<p>It’s been awhile since my boys were in after-school programs, but one really stands out for how well it was run. </p>

<p>The director set rules of behavior (pretty much what CGM is saying) and obviously trained her staff well. The young people serving as aides were about your age or slightly older. This was in a Los Angeles elementary school, so the racial mix was wide — black, hispanic, asian, white-- with no one group dominating and supervision was crucial because the entire playground was blacktop so kids could get hurt if rowdiness got out of hand. S1 was 6 when he was there and I stopped to watch him and others play a game of “four square” or box ball or whatever it’s called. </p>

<pre><code>One kid was not too coordinated and kept missing the ball and another kid started calling him names and making fun of him. I was very impressed when the supervisor-aide, a young man about 19, walked over and stopped the game. He told the second kid, “We don’t treat people like that in ‘Kid’s Korner.’ We don’t call anyone names and we don’t hurt people’s feelings. We help each other. Why don’t you show him how to catch the ball better…”
</code></pre>

<p>The second kid ended up giving a box-ball tutorial to the first kid, the aide suggested they shake hands (they did) and the game went on. He was not going to let the game continue until the behavior improved. And this was just for verbal bullying. The consequence for hitting or fighting was to leave the fun and go sit in the director’s office (and she was not reluctant to warn parents that a further consequence was having to leave the program.) </p>

<p>I commented on his skillful handling of the kids to the director and she nodded and said, “that’s what I train them to do.” Training is so important. This director later that year won an award for running the best after-school program. </p>

<p>The main thing is that all kids should feel that they are “safe” in that program and all the kids should know where the limits are. The limits have to be consistently enforced, and the staff have to not only model the right behavior, but actively teach it, explain it over and over if necessary. And all the staff have to be doing the same thing or it will not become the accepted culture of the program that that’s how you’re supposed to behave. </p>

<p>The suggestions on praising/rewarding kids for what they’re doing right is a good one.</p>

14

<p>You’ve gotten a lot of good advice. You might be helped by using the mediation process my kids learned in elementary school when they started their Peer Mediation program. It was more or less this:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>adapted from <a href=“http://www.studygs.net/peermed.htm[/url]”>http://www.studygs.net/peermed.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

15

<p>I really like a lot of what you’ve already been told on this board. These people could write a book! I want to add this one comment:</p>

<p>In nursing school, I learned two rules for dealing with children that I used all through my own kids’ childhoods:</p>

<ol>
<li> Offer choices, wherever possible.</li>
<li> Don’t offer a choice that doesn’t exist.</li>
</ol>

<p>“Do you want to get ready for bed now?” is not usually a choice that exists.
“It’s bedtime. Do you want to wear your pink pajamas or your blue ones?” is a choice that gives the kid some control in the process, without relinquishing ultimate control.</p>

<p>That’s a trivial example, but I used the concept over and over. My advice here is intented more to prevent future problems by offering choices ahead of time: “Those of you who can play without name calling or hitting, may join this group. Those of you who will have trouble with that may get a book and sit by yourself.”</p>

<p>If there are not set consequences for behaviors, then there needs to be. They need to be specific and well-known. And followed through impartially. You might even ask the kids themselves what they think would be fair for certain infractions. They might even be tougher than what you would come up with.</p>

<p>If you truly are in a big brother role, your options for discipline might only be “I’m telling.” My own kids were never allowed to discipline each other - that was my job. So you need to head off bad behavior as much as possible.</p>

16

<p>One thing I haven’t read yet is that I have found there is usually a kid who is the instigator. If you can figure out which kid that is and talk to them privately, that kid may feel really conflicted about a lot of things in their life. Befriend that kid a bit and give him or her some tools to cope more appropriately with the social pressures of the group of kids and with other stuff that is probably going on behind the scenes.<br>
The other suggestions re: rewards, praising etc are great. Just thought I would add this in.
Also be honest with them. Look them in the eye and tell them “no hitting. That won’t work for me”. Not in a “when you hit him I feel…” way but in a “we have a rule about hitting, it will not occur when I am around” way.</p>

17

<p>One thing I haven’t read yet is that I have found there is usually a kid who is the instigator</p>

<p>I agree ( I posted this in #7)
Our high school principal uses this tactic as well</p>

<p>*There needs to be a contract for behavior to participate in the program that both the parents and the children sign
Clearly posted rules, with stated( and posted) repercussions for failure to follow the rules
Clear privleges to be earned if they do follow the rules</p>

<p>Find the instigator(s) seperate them, and engage their cooperation in getting the group to behave.*</p>

18

<p>The kids need to know:</p>

<p>1) Who is in charge
2) What are the rules
3) Will the rules be enforced</p>

<p>This needs to be articulated so that you understand whether you can be part of the authority or if you are supposed to stand back and watch things spiral downwards. If the director is having trouble controlling the group, it’s going to be hard for you. As a youth role model, you want to be pleasant and likable, but you also need to figure out what you are willing to tolerate in the way the kids treat each other and make use of the program time. Make sure your body language is authoritative. Use a stern tone of voice. You have to start out authoritative and then you can be softer later. It doesn’t work the other way.</p>

<p>When 3rd graders see a 12th grader, they see an adult, a teacher, a counselor, an authority figure. You physically resemble an adult more than you physically resemble one of them and they will expect you to act accordingly. </p>

<p>Observe authority figures in your own life: what is assertive? what is bossy? Keep watching.</p>

<p>Techniques:
Stern voice when you observe a group situation brewing: “This stops now.” Then redirect the activity with authority.</p>

<p>Separate kids who are in each other’s faces, or give one of them a little task to do. Keep a mental list of little jobs for just this reason.</p>

<p>Don’t say “I’m warning you” or “If you guys don’t stop it right now, we’re not going to ____.”</p>

<p>Don’t tolerate any negative group behavior or dynamic that would not be allowed in the classroom environment. The kids are well aware of what is against the rules.</p>

<p>Nip stuff in the bud, before it plays out. You’ll see patterns develop between certain kids or groups very quickly.</p>

<p>Usually kids want a sense of order, authority, or fairness. They don’t want the dynamic to disintegrate into petty playground issues. </p>

<p>Do they have enough productive stuff to do? How did things get so out of hand? Did all this happen in a free play situation?</p>

<p>Google some leadership training topics and see what you find, such as “how to run a Cub Scout meeting” or similar tips for youth organizations.</p>

<p>During my first year as a Cub Scout den leader, I had to get advice from moms with older kids. Incredibly (I can say many years later), one of my questions was, “is it normal for them to be running across the cafeteria tables, jumping from table to table?” DUH!! NOT ALLOWED! And the kids well knew that, but since they weren’t allowed to do it during school hours, our meeting time after school was their prime opportunity. </p>

<p>Does this program have any sort of training program for you?</p>

19

<p>“I was kinda laughing in the background. Actually, I was laughing (though restrained) during the fight as well until it got physical.”</p>

<p>No, no, nonononononononnnnnooo. This is when you use a serious face, and maybe make eye contact with a slight shake of the head. </p>

<p>If you’ve got 3rd graders talking about sluts and stripping poles and physically fighting, having a director talking about feelings can be one component but more discipline methods are needed to establish and maintain a baseline of behavior appropriate for the program.</p>

20

<p>I volunteer at a similar program, and we just simply blacklist anyone who fights for a specified amount of time. We figure we’re doing them and their parents a favor by volunteering our time, and if they cant act civilly, then they arent welcome back.</p>