<p>In California, there are way more potential jobs for film, art/theater, entertainment, english, business, and communications majors with computer skills than for economists. The biggest benefit to cal econ majors is it is math intensive but that is a whole different sector of employment.Your mixing facts and opinion.</p>
<p>I think you guys are being way too harsh on mommy1964. </p>
<p>Perhaps your guys upbringing may be more liberal, but in many families, it’s considered unthinkable to go into liberal arts majors.
For many Indian and Chinese international students hoping to come to the US, it would be ridiculous to their families to pay so much to have them study History. And usually those families are wealthy enough to send kids abroad. For even residents/in-state families it is a huge deal to pay so much for college and even go in debt doing so. You do not go in debt to study Literature, and then not get a job, or a crappy one.</p>
<p>As an immigrant myself, I am fully aware that options are limited for me here and that I need to choose a worthwhile field (which I have). Not doing so would be downright stupid and terrible for my family if I can’t support myself or them in the future in this country.
For people here it really should be the same…you should pursue something that is honorable to your family and a promising future.</p>
<p>Those who are smart in this society need to stop buying into the “do what you love” saying everyone tells pre-college kids. If you’re average and don’t show huge potential in a field already, you shouldn’t take this advice…you need to learn what will make you a strong candidate for good JOBS. Those who learn fast know they need to join into the STEM fields, where our society is centered on today. I think mommy1964 is doing nothing wrong withholding paying for her son to college unless it’s a reliable field.
I think it’s worse to send a kid to college to study his heart’s desire or even go in undecided. That’s just spoiling them and letting him play up the societal expectations everyone has to go the 4 year college track, without even knowing why he’s going.</p>
<p>I think you all are too focused on purporting dreams and letting the kids be happy doing whatever…really don’t see college as a means to get an honorable. Or that many kids really do waste time in college on many useless liberal arts majors, being undecided, and get warped up into the major game where it’s just so fun to pick one you like and they end up liking it for a semester.
College is not an extension of high school where you pick and mix your subjects, college is CAREER TRAINING.</p>
<p>So, my advice to mommy1964…do not listen to those who try to tell you let him do whatever and find out for himself. Push him to make the best choice, but be gentle.</p>
<p>There is a wide range of good fields he can go into: from Engineering to Sciences to Medical to Technology to Accounting and so on. So you can’t just put him down into any one field. </p>
<p>Just tell him that you expect him to choose a reliable field, and you wouldn’t put him through some slack major, but only one that will get him a good career prospect.
Can’t avoid things just because they’re not easy, surely there must be one realistic major he likes.</p>
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<p>You are now mixing college with trade schools. Trade schools are career training. College is more about learning about the world and more than just your subject of choice. I am tired of conversing with other college students who are so narrow minded and know nothing about art and culture, or can even write proper sentences. </p>
<p>Yes, it may largely be a cultural pressure for immigrant students, but not everyone was raised that way. Oftentimes the students “waiting tables” are the ones who never were cut out for their major, or never really tried to find a job or internships. The ones who were a perfect match - liberal or STEM - did very well. </p>
<p>People keep referring to liberal arts majors as “slack” majors, yet I can understand and communicate with people far better than my STEM peers. I have more publications (as a college graduate) than many of the English/writing majors from my school have. You can’t just assume that someone will do well in any math/science field even if there are a variety of choices. That is a lot of pressure on a young kid whose parents are trying to live through them.</p>
<p>STEM majors overall are still better suited than liberal arts majors. That is just the way it is. Arguing this fact, and instead trying to interject ideas of “personal happiness” or “self fulfillment” into the equation dilutes the dilemma the OP was trying to address.</p>
<p>“Your mixing facts and opinion.”</p>
<p>Hmm, I don’t think so. The median mid-career salaries of the 5 majors I listed are:</p>
<p>English: 64,700
Art: 64,900
History: 71,00
Film: 68,500
Economics: 98,600</p>
<p>Econ majors (in or outside of California) rarely become full-fledged economicists, just like most math majors don’t become mathematicians. My advice to the OP, if her son is interested in business, is to suggest that he try accounting, economics, or maybe consulting.</p>
<p>The median degree average for temperatures:</p>
<p>1866: 71
1867 74
1868 73
1869 74
1870 77</p>
<p>See that proves 1870 was the warmest year overall, not individual days that were colder or warmer.</p>
<p>What I showed is that the probability of making an above average salary as an econ major is much higher than that of of the other majors given that 50% of them make well over the average income in the US by the middle of their careers. Therefore the risk that you will not earn a decent living is lowest if you majored in economics. If you want to go out and compare each individual econ major’s salary with every film/english/history/art major’s salary then be my guest, but I fully admit that you will find unemployed econ majors and extremely wealthy film majors. In no way, whatsoever, does that imply that majoring in film is a smarter choice than majoring in econ. All it shows is that majoring in economics does not gaurantee success, and majoring in film doesn’t gaurantee poverty. Not once did I claim that was true.</p>
<p>In california, we dont care about economics, thats old white dudes arguing about boring stuff. We have larger priorities like worrying about other peoples sex lives. Funny, the people I know with film, art, and english degrees are making money. My ucb econ graduate friends arent so are at a ccc to build job and people skills. Econ majors should be entertaining and a good oral speaker or support themselves through writing, as many do. </p>
<p>Sent from my LG-VM701 using CC</p>
<p>I can’t tell if you’re joking around or if you actually believe what you’re saying, but arguing about how little your state “cares” about economics isn’t helping your case given that California is broke. Your small sample of UCB friends obviously doesn’t constitute a representative sample. You clearly have a warped view of what econ majors do. They’re not all like your professor Robert Reich, going to speaking events, making YouTube videos, and appearing on MSNBC. Most of them work for businesses, banks, the public sector, and/or go on to business or law school. Your claim that econ majors should be “entertaining” or support themselves through writing is ridiculous. I personally know several econ majors across many more schools and age groups than your UCB friends, and they have all sorts of jobs, but none of them became successful by writing or public speaking.</p>
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<p>“Liberal arts” includes math and science as well as humanities and social studies.</p>
<p>Also, the most popular STEM major is biology, which does not have very good job and career prospects. It appears that a lot of students (and parents) assume that “STEM = good job and career prospects”, but that is not necessarily true for all STEM majors.</p>
<p>You just can’t equate salary with success, unless money is the only thing that matters in life. Success includes, health, happiness, relationships, etc. If you spend the majority of the day in a job you aren’t satisfied with, the rest of you will suffer. Relationships and your personal health will be impacted by stress levels - science has shown this strong correlation. And people typically become stressed out by things they don’t like or aren’t good at. And to do that 40-60 hours a week? It’s one thing to have a class you hate for a semester or two, but to spend the majority of your life doing it…</p>
<p>I am not saying STEM majors are a bad thing to pursue - for some people it is a wonderful choice and very fulfilling. And I’m also not saying that liberal arts majors are great to pursue - some people are better with numbers than understanding religions or history. It depends on the individual, what they want out of life (which is NOT always a huge salary), what their capabilities are, etc. Saying liberal arts majors are slack majors is like saying college should only offer STEM courses and nothing else. There are too many narrow-minded people in the world as it is, why wouldn’t you want students to learn a little more about different topics regardless of their major? To be a little cultured? Math skills won’t help you with personal relationships, which can be the most fulfilling thing you find in life. But a degree in art won’t fulfill you either, if a big salary and glamorous lifestyle is what you seek.</p>
<p>I would be very sad to see no more artists or writers or historians in schools and in the community in general. They add as much to a classroom as math and economics majors do. This is how people grow and encounter diversity. </p>
<p>And what exactly are STEM majors better suited at? Earning money? Having healthy, happy relationships? That was a vague statement with no clear definition or empirical evidence. There are studies out there that show STEM majors may be better at one quality, just as other studies show that other majors may be better at another quality. It is very personal as to which quality you hold more important. And not everyone fits the norm. Some artists are gifted students with top grades, while some math geniuses may have terrible grades in school, for whatever reason.</p>
<p>I think college graduates have been very vocal recently that they at least want their degrees to translate into a job that allows them to pay back their student loans and make a decent living for themselves. But the sad fact of the matter is that some skills just aren’t as rare as others. So you might be a very skilled writer, for example, but the likelihood of you supporting yourself with that isn’t the greatest because there are a lot of great writers who also need jobs. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that students study something they have no interest in, but students SHOULD consider where the jobs are as well as their interests. I mean if you like music and you like computer science, then go with computer science and study music when you have time. That’s not going to make you unhappy, unhealthy, or ruin your relationships. Even if it turned out you didn’t like what you were studying, it’s still not going to condemn you to a life of unhappiness like you make it sound. If I had a dollar for every person who hated their job, I would be living a life of luxury on my own private island. But these people still have happy lives with friends and family, hobbies, etc. </p>
<p>In fact, many of these people DID like what they studied in school, but either couldn’t find work in it or just don’t enjoy the work environment. I remember listening to an interview with Matt Stone and Trey Parker (South Park writers), and they said they didn’t enjoy making the show because of the time crunch (they studied film in college). I thought if anyone would love their job it was those two. So studying something just because you love it isn’t any more of a legitimate reason than money and job prospects. You really do need to consider both.</p>
<p>And going to college doesn’t mean you’ll have debt to pay off. There are affordable options for less lucrative majors. Most college forums focus on the “top” schools and are uber competitive, and scoff at or forget about the affordable options there are.</p>
<p>I am a recent college graduate, and I would NOT have changed my major had I known how hard it would be to get a job with a degree in psychology. It was a good choice for me, personally. </p>
<p>May I ask who “these people” are that you speak of? Because I know a very different group of people. My cousin went into nursing to make sure she had a job…she hates her job and keeps popping out kids in part because she wants a reason to stay home and not have to work. </p>
<p>I know a few students with business degrees who didn’t end up where they thought they’d be…one is an office secretary. The other is a minimum wage sales associate. I know a few chem and bio majors who aren’t working in a related field. </p>
<p>Never had I said not to consider job prospects at all - we agree on that aspect. But forcing your kid into STEM <em>if</em> they don’t have an interest/skills in STEM is not a good idea no matter how you look at it. Of course if they have an interest in that AND art, the choice might be more obvious. But if their whole life evolves around art and they don’t do well academically, the decision might be more difficult - but I don’t think they should turn away from college entirely. Again, there are affordable options. And there are always options for the student to work something out in their field of interest. Fine art might be difficult, but graphic design and interactive/web design is becoming quite in-demand in my area. I know an English major with only a BA who is a publishing assistant and is enjoying a nice apartment and traveling while working on some freelance writing and fully supporting herself. Some English/art/liberal arts majors DO succeed, and that is not to be forgotten. No one should just assume their child will fail because they aren’t interested in STEM. We’d be short some great artists, writers, historians, philosophers, etc. if that were the case.</p>
<p>“Never had I said not to consider job prospects at all - we agree on that aspect.” Good, then we agree. </p>
<p>I’m not going to waste my time refuting baseless claims like, “Most college forums focus on the “top” schools and are uber competitive, and scoff at or forget about the affordable options there are”</p>
<p>or straw men arguments, “But forcing your kid into STEM <em>if</em> they don’t have an interest/skills in STEM is not a good idea no matter how you look at it.” or “No one should just assume their child will fail because they aren’t interested in STEM.” (I didn’t even mention STEM. I was using economics as an example.) </p>
<p>or padding previously answered questions, “May I ask who “these people” are that you speak of?”…“Matt Stone and Trey Parker (South Park writers)” with basically everyone I’ve ever worked with, my sister, my uncle, and myself in my last job (teaching) because there’s obviously no way that I can prove that over an online forum.</p>
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<p>You can when that is the measure the OP was looking at: “Will I have to be on the hook for my sons debt if he gets major A”.</p>
<p>“You can when that is the measure the OP was looking at: ‘Will I have to be on the hook for my sons debt if he gets major A’.”</p>
<p>Actually what OP said was she didn’t want to spend money on a worthless degree. (Quotation marks are used when actually quoting someone.) I would imagine that if OP meant she didn’t want to be on the hook for her son’s debts, she would have said that. Having clarified that, OP is certainly within her rights not to spend money on something she considers worthless.</p>
<p>Now the OP, after giving her initial views, asked if she was being too harsh. It seems like the general tone of the responses is that if you force someone to do something for which they have no interest or aptitude, then yes, that is a bit harsh. Does that mean as a parent you don’t try and show your child the value of a particular point of view which in this case the value of a technical education? Of course not. </p>
<p>I have a son in college who is a music major, more specifically production and sound engineering. Why did he choose that path? He chose it because his music teacher and I pointed out the value of the more technical path which would give him more career opportunites as well as lower debt (for himself) coming out of college. My second son has no interest in STEM majors or accounting for that matter. The first thing we did was ask him to consider the value of such majors. Now with his remaining interests which can lead him in several directions, we are in the process of gathering info and finding the ramification (pros and cons as well as possible pitfalls) of a particular decision. Not only that, we are helping him to look for ways to differentiate himself from other candidates for the path he ultimately takes. And a funny thing happened along the way, he recognized certain technical skills which would come in handy and give him a leg up in pursuing some of his possible choices.</p>
<p>There are majors/careers way outside of math/engineering that make money…</p>
<p>Speech language pathology, for example, pays very nicely right out of college. I’ve heard figures like 60k for starting out after a MA degree, and I think it can go up to about 100k. Perhaps it’s not as well earning as engineering, but if your son enjoys language, perhaps that’s an option. There is some science involved, but it’s only a couple years and he’ll never need to deal with science again.</p>
<p>Psychology is another example. If your son becomes a therapist or psychologist (MA or PhD/PsyD degree), he can absolutely charge a good $150-200 an hour for a client. It’s an extremely well paying job, and psychology requires some basic biology classes, but again, nothing too terrible. Just basic lower division human biology and intro biopsychology or neuroscience classes.</p>
<p>Then there’s law, which has already been mentioned, but I feel like it’s worth saying again just to show there ARE majors that really do fall outside of the math department that make a LOT of money. Same goes for business administration, which outside of a few accounting classes, probably won’t include much math past graduation.</p>
<p>Think outside of the box with him. There really are other options out there.</p>
<p>Geo1113 - Your situation describes perfectly what I was trying to say. To find the most secure options you can within a desirable field and to set yourself apart from the pack (and ahead of the pack). </p>
<p>I spent most of my life as an artist, and wanting to attend college for art/graphic design. I thought it would be pointless to take non-art-related courses such as math and science. I almost attended a small art school after high school which offered only the basic, required general education courses. Boy am I glad I decided to defer that option. A year later I changed my major to psychology and suddenly embraced all of my courses and couldn’t learn enough. I’m still an artist at heart, but I agree that it is important to learn the value of different fields. That doesn’t mean you have to major in them, but the more skills you have, the more versatile you become. I wish your son the best in that field. </p>
<p>Newsoul - I agree that those are good careers, but masters degrees can be expensive and it may take years for a practicing psychologist to make that much money per client. They need to build up a referral base, which is rare to have right out of college. I do know a few people who have/are getting masters degrees in speech pathology, and the outlooks have been good for them. Some majors are also easier to switch paths with - such as psychology (you can be a psychologist, or go in to marketing, research fields, teaching, etc.), so that is an added value.</p>
<p>You are absolutely right; what the OP has said throughout her posts was this:</p>
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<p>Which is obviously NOT what is reflected in the paraphrasing in any way, shape or form (since we’re all up on informing posters - that is where you condense a lengthy argument into the super sexy salient bits). But by all means, continue to hang on to this thread - that the OP no doubt long abandoned after the pointless and off-base attacks on her parenting ability - in some small attempt to wring a “win” out.</p>
<p>I think it is clear to most of us that the OP is no longer active on this thread, and for those of us who want to continue a discussion - why do you care? I know I am not going to change the mind of someone who firmly believes STEM is the only useful group of majors to study, but I do like to try to throw out some things for them to think about. Are you saying we aren’t allowed to respond to other posts other than the OP? Because I’m pretty sure that’s how a lot of discussions go - you discuss things, not just dump your advice and leave. That’s how you learn, by allowing other people to challenge your thoughts and make you think more deeply about them. No one is right or wrong in this situation, but discussing different experiences offers a variety of perspectives on the issue.</p>