How to show my son he's in the wrong major?

<p>My two aunts were both Home Ec majors in college.</p>

<p>One ended up teaching middle school science and the other became a Vice President of an Electric Company.</p>

<p>You can get a job with just about any degree.</p>

<p>And since you’re so concerned about what your son should do, maybe you should have him go to Community College and get an Associates in Dental Hygiene, Diagnostic Medical Sonography, or Nuclear Medicine Technology. All of these are two year degrees that end up with incomes of about $60,000 a year.</p>

<p>[Nuclear</a> Medicine Technologists : Occupational Outlook Handbook : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics](<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/nuclear-medicine-technologists.htm]Nuclear”>http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/nuclear-medicine-technologists.htm)
[Dental</a> Hygienists : Occupational Outlook Handbook : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics](<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/dental-hygienists.htm]Dental”>http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/dental-hygienists.htm)
[Diagnostic</a> Medical Sonographers : Occupational Outlook Handbook : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics](<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/diagnostic-medical-sonographers.htm]Diagnostic”>http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/diagnostic-medical-sonographers.htm)</p>

<p>AU, you might have been able to get a job with any degree in the past, but the fact is, the economic climate has changed. Employers are being extremely picky about who they hire and what type of background they have. Gone are the days where an English major can become a Investment banker. If you want to go that route, you better know finance and about the markets. You better know how to create financial models. Similarly, a high tech company is not going to hire a exercise science major. Why would they? No programming experience, doesn’t know anything about software or hardware engineering. Before you devote yourself into a major, you need to do all of your research. Ask real people who are in the field. Research the job market. Does it have a high turnover rate? And so on.</p>

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<p>Not entirely true. You may have to start at the very bottom of the rung when changing career paths, but if your education really did teach you anything, then you can work your way up into many positions at a much faster rate than someone with no college education. Some positions may require additional training, certification, a higher degree, etc., but your undergraduate major is not likely to prevent you from becoming something if you have your mind set to it and are willing to take the time to work your way into it.</p>

<p>This is especially true of rather general/highly adaptable majors, such as psychology, marketing, communications, etc.</p>

<p>I always had a writing skill. It came to me naturally, it was something I just knew how to do and wanted to do. I began college as a journalism major, had one semester of insanity where I tried business, and then ended up as an Advertising major. I’ve been a copywriter all my life. I couldn’t imagine ending up as an accountant or an engineer. I am very intelligent, but no matter how hard I try, I’ll never be more than average when it comes to math. That’s just not how my brain works.</p>

<p>So if somehow I forced myself to be in a STEM- based job, and earned another $20,000 a year, would that have made up for the misery I would go through every day doing a job that I hated and wasn’t that good at? No way. For that matter, if I was more of a mgmt type, I could easily have been a creative director by now and be making $100,000 or more. That’s not who I am, either. But there are ways to be successful (monetarily and emotionally) in non STEM fielda.</p>

<p>Nova, in IB, they will train you, but they will also assume you have some background in finance. You couldn’t be a writer without having a background in writing could you? Sure you could learn these things, but it’d be a lot easier to have a grasp on all the concepts that they throw at you, if you had a background.</p>

<p>The only prerequisite of IB is Ivy undergrad.</p>

<p>Financial modeling only becomes important at associate positions (MBA hires) and even then, SO MANY SOFT SKILLS take precedence over math and models. IB is a glorified salesman, dontcha know</p>

<p>Ivy undergrad? I go to a State school, and I’ve been interviewed by JP Morgan, UBS, Deutsche Bank, and some of the boutiques. True, there are other soft skills you need to know, but you at least have to know how to analyze and crunch the numbers.</p>

<p>I think if your son tried to study engineering with his poor math skills then he would be in trouble. The opinion that nothing but science and math based stuff are the only ones that he should study to be able to get a job are false. There is a lot going on out there and things are always changing.</p>

<p>You need to let your son pick out what he wants to study. What are you going to do if he decides not to go to school at all? If you are worried about him getting a job then why not push him towards a technical degree that he can jump straight into a job from.</p>

<p>I think that there are more opportunities for making money online than a lot of other choices. The internet has become so all pervasive in our society now that everyone uses it. Every little business needs and many want a website. If you don’t have a website, no one can find you. All the websites need some SEO marketing help. The possible jobs and new businesses that can spring just from the people that need help getting their companies up to date online is staggering.</p>

<p>There’s a difference between Math/Engineering majors… obviously very high in demand… majors that aren’t the aforementioned but are just as competitive in the global job market… and there’s majors that have absolutely no practical importance to the world.</p>

<p>^ How are you defining “practical importance”? And why do you have the authority to define what “practical importance” means to seven billion other people?</p>

<p>I think some people forget that not everyone sees their education as a commodity, and themselves as a product for market exchange.</p>

<p>What college does your son go to?</p>

<p>If the college is prestigious enough, business jobs are available to humanities majors.</p>

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<p>Perfectly said.</p>

<p>Teren, Humanities majors are a waste of money these days. I personally know a good amount of people that graduated from Harvard, with Humanities majors, and are either working at some dry cleaners or working menial jobs. Gone are the days where any major can land you a good job on Wall Street. They want people that have a solid background now, because it costs companies money to train people. The more solid your background, the less formal training you need. Therefore, Finance/Economics background= easier access to those jobs, and a higher chance.</p>

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<p>^That is not true. </p>

<p>Any humanities major at Harvard with a GPA greater than 3.5 will get an interview with Wall Street and/or management consulting.
Whether they get the job is entirely up to their own raw intelligence at that point (technical knowledge is NOT expected), though if you are in a STEM/Philosophy major you will certainly have had a more rigorous education.</p>

<p>I would agree that econ majors have a higher chance (there are no finance majors at Harvard), but it’s not because they actually know more financial modeling, it’s because they have had more quantitative exposure.</p>

<p>I suspect hyperbole in your statement, but I will nonetheless tell you the real reason why those humanities majors are doing dry cleaning work: they are stupid.
Even if they majored in STEM, they wouldn’t have done any better (especially since their GPA would be even lower!) at getting a job in Wall St/consulting.</p>

<p>Econ majors have, like, MARGINALLY more quantitative exposure. Look up any school (Harvard incl.) and you will see that the maximum required to graduate econ is like 1 stats and 1 econometrics class. Granted, they have calculus prereqs, but anybody who goes to Harvard would have likely done those prereqs in high school. Would also argue philosophy re rigor of education.</p>

<p>Any major is useless if you don’t know how to use it.</p>

<p>"he is searching for majors outside of math,science,and engineering… How do I show him that that is a big mistake? Engineering is booming right now and forever, "</p>

<p>This is so thoroughly untrue, it’s nearly delusional. I myself am a STEM grad (in engineering and physics), with a PhD from a top university and published research papers- and for me and my colleagues in STEM fields right now, this is by far the worst time ever to be in a STEM field- and it’s gone downhill with unbelievable speed. The (reasonably upbeat) situation for STEM just 10 years ago is a world away from the dire situation today. The jobs are being outsourced from the USA at a fast-growing rate, opportunities to get one’s foot in the door are disappearing, fellowships are shriveling up, fundamental protections are vanishing (growing number of us have no health insurance which is a catastrophic situation), our student loans for training are exploding… and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. It’s gotten so awful that a large number of us are emigrating from the US. I’ll spell it out in a little more detail, if nothing else to introduce a harsh but necessary dose of post-graduation reality about engineering, STEM or other “useful” majors as “safe”- they’re not, so for everyone’s good it’s important to dispel these comforting illusions.</p>

<p>-- An awful jobs situation: there’s a perfect storm of circumstances making a STEM career in the United States perilously difficult to start out in after you graduate. Public funded sources, like fellowships supported by the NSF and NIH, are being suspended or heavily cut across the board, so much so that even established labs and institutions are shutting down their projects and post-grad training programs. (The current budget in Congress is eyeing still harsher cuts for these programs, esp. basic science- forget about that as a career, at least if you stay in the US.) These historically have been the critical entry-level rungs for young engineers and other STEM grads to get the specific job-related training needed to launch their careers, get hired by companies. and so on. On top of this, outsourcing (to many places, not just to India and the Philippines despite common presumptions) as well as rampant H-1B abuse are further decimating the good-paying, early to mid-career jobs in the US that used to provide some mobility. Most STEM grads from other countries don’t have the crushing student loans and (for outsourcing) don’t face the spiraling health care costs of an American employee, which not only places downward pressure on US STEM salaries but eliminates US positions altogether. (It’s usually easy for a company to find cheap labor elsewhere.) As these “launcher” jobs disappear, they put young engineers especially in a terrible bind- their student loans are compounding interest, but often even the best can’t find work. </p>

<p>-- What jobs are available, too often are miserable sub-contractor positions with low pay and little to no benefits, esp health care, for many many years if one is fortunate enough to advance at all. These sub-contractor positions are one reason why unemployment appears deceptively low for STEM grads (besides the underemployment factor in non-STEM jobs)- very competent engineers and other STEM graduates are stuck in a kind of employment underclass with these positions, and the lack of health care can be crippling. A close friend of mine, a successful chemist by training, was nonetheless stuck in such a sub-contractor position and badly injured in a car accident that was the other driver’s fault. Didn’t matter- even though she was insured, her lousy individually-bought insurance (she couldn’t afford anything else) didn’t come close to covering all the costs of her surgeries and other recovery. She had to declare bankruptcy and, brutally stigmatized for circumstances outside of her control, unable to get further work even though she did eventually recover, and despite all of her achievements and contributions, she’s left the USA never to return- more on this below. While this case may be especially awful, it’s hardly exceptional anymore. Now about that student debt…</p>

<p>-- Student loans: STEM fields like engineering aren’t areas that can be mastered at a community college, but generally fall under the purview of well-funded research universities. With the collapse of state budgets, even public universities are seeing tuition shoot skyward, which means that your student loan burden will likely be crushing by the time you graduate, as one of my cousins (at a state university) is discovering to his dismay. Keep in mind also that in STEM fields, you will be working incredibly hard to master your subject- a high GPA and exam scores can often require about 40-60 hours a week of hard-core studying, report-writing, and lab work- so you will have very little opportunity to minimize your loans with part-time jobs. </p>

<p>And it’s about to get much worse. While the details haven’t been finalized, Rep. Paul Ryan’s budget in Congress would axe Pell Grants and other financial aid, while doubling the student loan interest rate and ensuring that it compounds while you’re in school, making an already awful situation even worse. If you’re not among the decreasing lucky few to land a good, high-paying STEM job after you graduate (which often requires family connections), or especially if you run into eg. medical issues, your student loans will skyrocket. Since there are effectively no consumer protections for student loans, this basically means financial ruin for decades, even for a highly qualified, certified engineering or comp sci grad.</p>

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<li>Ironically enough, having a STEM background with advanced degrees can actually hurt your career, since it will make you over-qualified for what entry-level positions are left. Employers are often afraid to hire or sub-contract out to a very highly skilled graduate with advanced degrees from top schools, since they can’t see such a person working there, and fear they’d leave after a short period on the job. Ironically, some of my fellow STEM grads facing the worst employment situation right now, are among the top 10% at their schools, in some cases even the Ivy Leagues or top tech schools. But they’re considered over-qualified everywhere they apply and largely passed over.</li>
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<p>-- Not even medicine or law are “safe” fields anymore- I know less about this personally, but have a lot of family and friends in these fields, and it’s worse than anytime I can remember. Student loan levels for med-school are becoming truly horrific even for public medical schools- more than $300,000 tuition debt (with compounding) is hardly unusual, while reimbursement levels are dropping and costs (for eg. malpractice insurance) are skyrocketing. With Congress stuck in yet another budget impasse, funds for post-grad training and reimbursement are drying up further. Medicine can also be a risky career since you’re around disease and danger all the time, and the back-up safety nets in the US are outrageously inadequate to help nurses, doctors, PA’s and other healthcare specialists get going again. I was totally shocked to hear from an old acquaintance from undergrad, a surgeon- who’s now on food stamps! He was finishing a residency when he suffered a needle stick that side-lined him. He tried to re-train in pathology but was rejected because they were worried he’d be too sick from the effects of what he contracted. He had some sort of disability insurance but they found some clause in the fineprint to deeply cut his payouts. Totally unbelievable- he was magna cum laude at the school, a top performer at med school, working his a** off at every level (hard to comprehend how hard these docs work at the start of their careers), now he’s on food stamps, meager health insurance, with $100,000 plus in student debt that he has no way of re-paying! Again an esp. awful case, but points up the inadequacies in the US system these days. Law is even worse, even for graduates of Ivy League schools. Post-grad and entry-level positions are again drying up, Big Law just isn’t hiring, so law grads who’ve often put in 80-hour weeks to get their training, are stuck with $200,000 debts and no way to repay them.</p>

<p>-- Emigration away from the US. It’s hard to estimate this since the Census doesn’t collect systematic data on Americans leaving the country, but among my circle at least, in engineering and other STEM fields, emigration is exploding. Many other countries in the world have a high level of social respect and support for engineers and STEM grads- esp places like Sweden, Switzerland, Germany, Finland, France, Belgium, Denmark and the Dutch in Europe, or (in Asia) China, Taiwan or Korea. Even a few South/Central American countries, like Chile or Panama, actively seek out American engineers or STEM grads for their projects. Emigrating isn’t easy, as you’ll have to eventually master the local language- though my old friends tell me that German is re-bounding as a sort of ‘lingua franca’ for many STEM fields esp in Europe, so if you can publish a paper or report in German, you’ll have a leg up. Also Europe and some Asian countries do tend to have a preference for people with ancestry in their countries, though a skilled engineer or STEM grad will have more options.</p>

<p>My friends who’ve made the move overseas almost universally say it was worth it, even with the complaints they still have in places. Engineers and STEM grads get much more social respect, and you won’t risk career disaster or bankruptcy if you wind up in a car accident- health care is generally universal-coverage of some sort. Massive student debt is virtually unheard of (except in Britain which in some ways is in worse shape than the US)- countries like Germany do track students earlier, but university fees are a pittance compared to the US, so an engineering or STEM grad from Germany or France eg. will usually graduate debt-free. These countries have never had oil or other easy sources of wealth, so they have well-structured systems to produce their wealth by training and employing smart people, making you a valued member of society. Taxes are not higher despite common mis-conceptions- Europe and Asia generally don’t have the multi-layer taxes of the US, and public services take care of things that are out-of-pocket in the US. </p>

<p>Maybe most important, is that Germany and China- the two top STEM and engineering countries- and their neighbors have well-run apprenticeship programs, that make sure STEM grads can find good jobs in their fields, so if you want to work, you’ll be able to. Companies in the US don’t want to hire Americans for fear of on-the-job training costs, while all the political wrangling has meant that government-funded apprenticeships and training are also being heavily cut, so young STEM grads (as well as laid-off older ones) are basically stuck with no way to start their careers. Whereas the Germans and Chinese have public and private institutions both, to help make sure that STEM grads get work. Their banking systems are also more sound than the US these days, so while it’s increasingly tough to get capital to start a business in the US, places like Germany and China give preference to STEM grads.</p>

<p>I’m sorry to sound so downbeat here about the prospects in the US, but it’s important to be realistic about what STEM grads are up against. I’ve run into too many STEM grads who’ve done great in school and internships, often graduating with honors and published papers, thinking they’re in comparatively good shape with such a “useful” major, only to wind up frustrated and outraged when even after many years of searching, training and sub-contract working they still can’t find adequate work. The problem goes way beyond the STEM fields in general- it’s a problem at the highest levels of the US social and political system. </p>

<p>There simply isn’t much of a sense of community, let alone community investment in this country anymore, which has brutal effects on people starting their careers. Student loan and health insurance costs are skyrocketing while entry-level jobs are disappearing, there are too many incentives for companies to ship jobs overseas while at the same time, well-connected elites (CEO’s and those with political connections) siphon off wealth with cronyist capitalism that should go to education and investment, fellowships and other crucial foot-holds for STEM grads are drying up, public institutions are shriveling up and so on. The ethic running the country seems to be all about cheap labor and big executive profits for well-connected companies, with little concern for the good of the community. I hate to say it, but as someone who myself has worked on projects in portions of the 3rd World, the USA itself is increasingly taking on the features of some Third World countries, with radical inequality and little if any middle class or support for engineering. Majoring in STEM won’t necessarily help you find better work, despite all the long hours and brutal workload you’ll have to take on for the major. You’ll have to be prepared to consider other countries if necessary, so try as much as possible to learn languages like German or others relevant to the field. You’ll probably find something if you’re determined enough, but you’ll have to cast your net wider than you probably expected to do.</p>

<p>^Even if true, this really does absolutely nothing to add to the <em>relative</em> comparison between humanities majors vs. engineering majors. For all we know, the engineering major situation may be <em>relatively</em> better than the humanities.</p>

<p>I also think many of your points are overblown. All the shriveling research budget tells me is that it is a bad time for one to be in <em>academia</em>, not engineering. If you are an engineer, you don’t go into a research fellowship (that’s for if you’re a PhD); you work at a company.
Again, if you’re in a STEM field, you don’t get a PhD to work in industry; one only gets a PhD if they want to work in academia, because the time spent on that PhD could be better used getting experience if they’re goal is industry work.
And as far as computer engineering is concerned, there is overwhelming demand, and in fact there is a shortage of computer engineers relative to demand.
I’m also generally skeptical of the “outsourcing problem”. My brother is an electrical engineer at Cisco, and told me that the only work that gets outsourced is the low-level grunt work and testing work, since work done overseas is considered to be sub-par and it would be a risk to outsource design work, so the design work stays in the US.</p>

<p>Now back to the original humanities discussion.
I think one problem with humanities majors is that they attract the type of people who really have no direction and don’t know what they want to do in life, so they go for an easy major or a major whose classes they like, but they really don’t know what they want to do with it after college, so they get an incoherent series of unrelated internships and research experiences.</p>

<p>I think that IF you have a clear career goal in mind (e.g. I want to work for the State Dept.). It is perfectly fine to major in the humanities as long as you are proactive and ensure that all your internships and extracurriculars are focused towards that goal, so that by the time you graduate you will have had an impressive resume for a job.
(e.g. if you major in international relations, then really zero in on getting internships at embassies, international orgs., UN, political offices, etc…, while doing extracurriculars like debate, community service, student govt, etc…)
The key is having a unified resume “story.”</p>

<p>“you don’t go into a research fellowship (that’s for if you’re a PhD); you work at a company.”</p>

<p>And how, Terenc, do you think you get the training to “work at a company”? They don’t just hire people straight out of school, whether you have a Bachelor’s, Master’s or a PhD- they don’t want to do on-the-job training anymore, they want you to be fully ready to fit in on Day 1. The result is that in practice, those “research fellowships” or their equivalents (which again are not just for PhD’s) have come to function as de facto vocational apprenticeships for STEM grads going into industry as much as academia. With the support for such training being gutted and gutted, the lower rungs are being pulled out from the ladder that’s essential for engineers and other STEM grads to get a foothold in the first place. The reality of working is a world away from what you’ve probably picked up in school, and it’s something that you come to appreciate only after many years of being in this field, being able to compare how it was to what it’s currently become.</p>

<p>“I’m also generally skeptical of the “outsourcing problem”. My brother is an electrical engineer at Cisco, and told me that the only work that gets outsourced is the low-level grunt work and testing work, since work done overseas is considered to be sub-par and it would be a risk to outsource design work, so the design work stays in the US.”</p>

<p>This may have been true back in 1995 but it is not true anymore. The outsourcing occurs at all levels and besides, those “low-level grunt work and testing work” jobs that you disparage are essential for young engineers to learn the ropes and get their career footing. I was one of those grunts for two years back in the 1990’s when I was first getting my feet wet in the field, and there were among the most productive and educational in my career- almost any engineer will tell you the same. That’s how you learn what it actually is, in practical terms, to be an engineer and a scientist, and if the grunt positions are outsourced, once again the rungs are pulled out from the ladder necessary to train our future STEM workforce. </p>

<p>The H-1B program in particular is incredibly corrupt and benefits almost no one except a few higher-level managers (almost never engineers themselves) who profit from a bit of short-term bottom line-padding. My own company was working with another that had brought in a number of H-1B hires years back, and the practices were beyond outrageous- putting up basically false job postings that received hundreds of US-based applications which were never in practice considered (thus wasting the valuable time of the Americans), filling the slots with cheaper H-1B hires and then treating the H-1B-recruited foreign workers like dirt, humiliating them and threatening them with deportation to keep their salaries artificially low for the hours they were putting in. The abuses in the program are rampant.</p>

<p>The irony of this is that I myself- trained many years ago- was able to return to a well-paying job in the private sector once the grant situation dried up, since I’m already well advanced into my career. While the drying-up of research fellowships is infuriating to those of us who had active collaborations between the private sector and academia (a number of job-creating ideas have melted away in the current environment), most of us with a toehold have been able to avoid untoward consequences on a personal financial level. What angers us is something on a more holistic, societal level- the devastation this will wreak on our field in the next 10-20 years, and the damage and mistrust the current short-term-obsessed environment is sowing in the students and young engineers that we take great pride in mentoring. We don’t just do this for the money- we want to bring up the next generation of engineers and STEM grads and instill pride in our profession, and the current incentive structure in the US is causing grievous harm to the viability of the profession. If not now, the effects will certainly be evident over the coming decade. </p>

<p>Engineering and STEM fields in general have never been easy careers and I tell this to the students that I mentor- it’s often a tough hustle and battle when one’s starting out, as it was for me when I trained in the 1990’s. But there was much more support for me and my fellow grads back then in our careers, much more community backing and far less of a student loan burden- and I never, ever had to worry about being financially crippled by medical costs due to lack of health insurance. It is truly outrageous that, after pouring so much sweat and tears into the field (not to mention tens of thousands in students loans that have virtually no consumer protections and tremendous corruption from the lending agencies), my younger counterparts now find the rug pulled out from under them after graduation. And that they’re even forced to go without something so basic as health insurance, something that virtually no other industrialized country ever allows especially for its best-educated graduates.</p>

<p>One other foolish corporate practice of late that’s compounding the woes of young engineers- checking the credit scores of potential hires. Recently graduated engineers of course have low credit scores because of the educational debt they need to train in their fields, so making it difficult to find work because of that very debt is completely nonsensical- these are people most willing to work in the first place! </p>

<p>Again, when I was starting up in the 1990’s, I never ran into a single company that did this (and fortunately college debt was low for us anyway). But the students and grads I mentor today are basically trapped, forced into debt to train in STEM fields and then denied work because of that very debt. It’s one of the most idiotic wastings of human-capital in our nation’s history, an example of the worst kind of short-term thinking and foreclosing on the prospects of young engineers and STEM grads, and also something that other industrialized countries would never allow. These sorts of blunders and abuses call out for immediate reform if we’re to retain any kind of engineering infrastructure in this nation.</p>

<p>^^ Educational debt does not automatically mean a low credit score. I have over $70k in student loan debt and $14k in a car loan and graduated with a rather high credit score. I’ve used credit cards responsibly for a few years, had low balances on them (while the credit limits keep increasing due to good standing), and had few hard inquiries because I spaced out my loans and credit applications. I’ve never had a late or missed payment. It might be harder to get other loans (for cars, mortgage, etc.) but does not necessarily bring down your actual credit score. </p>

<p>Now, I’ve heard of some employers looking specifically at debt accumulation and not the actual score, because theory is if you have a lot of debt you may be more likely to take bribes, steal, etc. But I would think student loans would be less alarming than other debts.</p>